Southdale Area - Edina

[mattaudio]

^ #multiwayboulevard

[Anondson]

In a recent article on the apartment boom spreading into the suburbs was a mentioned that One Southdale Place is 70% leased. Makes me think another slice of the outer Southdale parking outlots could be up for this treatment.

Instead of just directing you the Apartment Boom thread, here is the link with the One Southdale reference (article also have a gallery of images from inside).

http://www.startribune.com/apartment-bo ... /318733241

[sdho]

Makes me wish Richfield were able to capitalize in the recent growth in the Southdale area better. The neighborhood due east of Southdale Center has a nice compact urban form -- 50' lots, alleys, tight grid. Which is great, but very unappealing to develop compared to the much, much larger parcels on the Edina side. Richfield's comp plan calls for multi-family housing right on the Xerxes frontage, but doesn't envision much else.

Perhaps someday interest may grow in a mixed-use development in the Southdale Square mall (which straddles the border, mostly in Richfield).

Also interesting to compare how much is going on on York, but as it curves to Xerxes north of 66th, both sides have been pretty untouched for ~40+ years.

[Anondson]

Half of the old Dayton's brick exterior is now gone. Replaced with Dave and Buster's logo, flashier coloring and panels. There are some parts down along the ground level still being repainted.

Southdale exterior update by Eric Anondson, on Flickr

[mattaudio]

This seems to honor Victor Gruen's legacy in a strange way.

[Anondson]

The old Best Buy to be redeveloped as six story apartments? York is becoming quite a dense strip.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... etail.html

[sdho]

The old Best Buy to be redeveloped as six story apartments? York is becoming quite a dense strip.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... etail.html

Although technically in Edina, it'd be a nice gateway to Richfield as you go eastbound on 66th. Wonder how the Richfield homeowners on Xerxes farther north here will feel -- this does seem smaller in scale compared to the Wickes site. I suspect the developer would win even more interest if they flipped the parking garage entrance to Southdale Cir rather than Xerxes.

[MNdible]

Based on the site plan, I'd guess that the resident parking is accessed from Xerxes, while the public/restaurant/visitor parking would be accessed off of Southdale Circle.

[RailBaronYarr]

Gotta say, I like all the stuff that's going on here. It would be nice if there was some better vision for the streets themselves. France Ave may be too far gone, but 66th & York really have potential. Where 66th narrows from 120' of ROW (!!) east of York to 80' or so, there's still plenty of ROW that could be acquired. York is 120' all the way down to 494 it seems. And there's still a ton of setback beyond that. Where Minneapolis has 80-90' arterials, there's space for anything you could desire here. Bus lanes, cycle tracks, better sidewalks, bigger trees. Shorter distances between crossing points (at least ones cars will respect) would be nice, too.

I'm prepared for the MNdible backlash, but these 2 streets carry mostly below 20k AADT. It would be nice to see the more regional traffic coming to Southdale use France while these 2 could prioritize the (fairly decent) bus connections it has along with making walking more enjoyable.

[MNdible]

I'm prepared for the MNdible backlash, but these 2 streets carry mostly below 20k AADT.

Ask and ye shall receive. Based on the upzoning and densification of this area, I'd wager that traffic will increase significantly in the area, regardless of any macro trends going on. So take a condition which is already beyond the levels where a 4-3 conversion makes sense, and now add more traffic.

Again, please don't take the above to suggest that we shouldn't make improvements to the public realm and to walkability (although I'm somewhat skeptical, based on the scale of the developments, that this will ever become prime pedestrian turf). Just that the old 4-3 silver bullet isn't a realistic answer in this location.

[MNdible]

Looking at the site plan again, it looks like they're planning on taking that first house on Xerxes for the green space.

[sdho]

There is one pinch point -- Xerxes from Crosstown to 64th. But yes, other than that, CSAH 31 has a massive right-of-way. I'm not sure 4-to-3 is needed if a 4-lane divided can work well.

I think with the right investment in the corridor, it could be a great grand boulevard, and even work with the proportions of the existing setback. One of the most obnoxious things is that it has about a 30'-wide (totally empty) median, yet sidewalks are squeezed up against the curb, or very close. If everything were in proportion -- say, slightly narrower median, generous planted boulevards, and cycletracks -- I think 120' could look quite grand and contribute to a sense of place. Think of the dramatic setbacks on Park Avenue in Phillips, with all the old mansions -- it actually works pretty well.

Possible idea: http://streetmix.net/sdho/28/york-ave-complete-street. You might modify for areas where parking is desired. Could also be 2-lane divided north of 66th, and only go to the full width between 66th and 494.

[sdho]

And general observation that's been said before: Edina seems willing to invest in high-quality public space stuff, including to improve things for peds, but their goal in Southdale is clearly "driveable urbanism". I think it would be far easier, especially given the massive ROW to work with, to keep 4-lane divided, but narrow the lanes and spruce it up to be drastically better for bike-ped.

[RailBaronYarr]

You may have noticed I didn't mention a 4-3. I was more referring to the double turn lanes, overly wide lanes/medians, and sidewalks right up against the street with no trees. Sean's recommendation is more what I was thinking, provisions for pedestrian refuge, enough calming to make crossing every block a possibility. The 20k metric was just measuring stick, and yes it's true more development will mean more traffic (though a couple hundred units isn't going to break the bank), and I really do think France (with 3 thru lanes in each direction) could take the brunt of more regional trips if Xerxes/York were focused more on local travel & serving non-auto trips in the area.

As an aside, the exit at Xerxes from Crosstown seems like it could maybe go. Xerxes has no entrance/exit on 494, and the spacing between Penn-Xerxes-France is 1 mile *total*. Add in the curve on Crosstown and it probably hurts more than it helps, both in highway operations as well as local traffic generated. Anyway.

[sdho]

As an aside, the exit at Xerxes from Crosstown seems like it could maybe go. Xerxes has no entrance/exit on 494, and the spacing between Penn-Xerxes-France is 1 mile *total*. Add in the curve on Crosstown and it probably hurts more than it helps, both in highway operations as well as local traffic generated. Anyway.

In the grand scheme of things, it seems like there are too many access points on Crosstown in general. (Does Bloomington Ave really need EB access, like two feet from the Cedar interchange?) And I agree, either Xerxes or Penn should probably go for the sake of regional traffic. But I have to wonder if the current high level of access might be part of what's enticing developers to this stretch. With the ability to go straight up Xerxes to Crosstown and merge onto 35W, it's 10 minutes from one of these new apartment buildings to downtown.

With Xerxes closed, the traffic has to go somewhere. France is already considered deficient today, and 35W-bound traffic would likely just go to 35W & 66th, meaning more traffic on that local street rather than a freeway.

Perhaps it will get wrapped in with a larger redo of the France/Crosstown interchange in the future. I believe the 494 Corridor coalition (whose interests apparently extend beyond 494-proper) want a SPUI there, similar to Lyndale/494. I hope we can come up with something more pedestrian-friendly and that transitions gracefully to the residential scale to the north.

[MNdible]

You may have noticed I didn't mention a 4-3.

Sorry, your reference to the 20k AADT seemed like a direct reference, based on recent conversations. Carry on.

[min-chi-cbus]

As an aside, the exit at Xerxes from Crosstown seems like it could maybe go. Xerxes has no entrance/exit on 494, and the spacing between Penn-Xerxes-France is 1 mile *total*. Add in the curve on Crosstown and it probably hurts more than it helps, both in highway operations as well as local traffic generated. Anyway.

In the grand scheme of things, it seems like there are too many access points on Crosstown in general. (Does Bloomington Ave really need EB access, like two feet from the Cedar interchange?) And I agree, either Xerxes or Penn should probably go for the sake of regional traffic. But I have to wonder if the current high level of access might be part of what's enticing developers to this stretch. With the ability to go straight up Xerxes to Crosstown and merge onto 35W, it's 10 minutes from one of these new apartment buildings to downtown.

With Xerxes closed, the traffic has to go somewhere. France is already considered deficient today, and 35W-bound traffic would likely just go to 35W & 66th, meaning more traffic on that local street rather than a freeway.

Perhaps it will get wrapped in with a larger redo of the France/Crosstown interchange in the future. I believe the 494 Corridor coalition (whose interests apparently extend beyond 494-proper) want a SPUI there, similar to Lyndale/494. I hope we can come up with something more pedestrian-friendly and that transitions gracefully to the residential scale to the north.

Totally agree -- the network of roads, highways and access points is what makes this area so accessible and attractive. I wish more retail zones were built this way. I've seen many examples where there's just one or two access points from the freeway and it spells disaster for traffic.

[twincitizen]

KSTP: http://kstp.com/article/stories/s3887721.shtml

[grant1simons2]

"High rise"

[min-chi-cbus]

I don't even think Aunt Mable in rural Iowa thinks that's a hi-rise...