Southdale Area - Edina

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mulad
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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby mulad » February 27th, 2013, 4:22 pm

Getting back to a comment MNdible made a while back -- Seeing how much asphalt there is in this area and how the parcels (and many buildings) line up on a grid, I don't think there are any big barriers to reworking the area incrementally. Many new streets can be added with zero impact on buildings. If whole streets are considered overkill, there are still many opportunities to add bike/ped paths. I'm not quite sold on this fancy Promenade wandering through the area, especially since the distances get pretty large pretty quickly (the France and York are 2000' apart), but there's still a considerable amount of residential and office space within walking distance of the retail.

Edina should acknowledge the fact that Richfield exists and isn't just a blank "Here there be dragons" spot on the map. Some of those streets could be extended westward quite naturally.

There is a big problem with the fact that there are hardly any sidewalks on residential streets and the minor feeders in the commercial zones.

Anyway, this area seems more easily reformable even than Roseville -- an area that looks like it has a street grid at first glance, but would require bulldozing a lot of homes to fix it. In my poking around with the map I posted earlier, I only had to plow through a single $225,000 house in the process of adding a bunch of streets.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby MNdible » February 27th, 2013, 4:24 pm

If it is indeed true that the property taxes generated by Edina (specifically France Southdale and even 50th/France) is a cash cow and exceeds the costs of infrastructure and public maintenance, then it is a zero sum game for the rest of the areas that it serves. If South Minneapolis, Richfield, Bloomington, and St Louis Park residents are driving to this highly productive area, then they are NOT staying in their own area to shop, eat, be entertained, or work.
Indeed, yes. That was exactly the point I was trying to make.

And I'm not arguing that this is a good thing, just that it's the reality. A reality that won't be changed by any of the things we're discussing here, except for perhaps a couple of suggestions where people are saying, "Let's deliberately make it more difficult for people to get to the location that they want to go to so they won't drive there as much." I guess I have to salute that line of thinking for its intellectual honesty, but otherwise it doesn't impress me much.

I hate the state of retailing in the US, and it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing regarding our road infrastructure, but until people are willing to spend more money to buy things at more conveniently located but smaller stores, SuperTargets are going to be king.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby mattaudio » February 27th, 2013, 5:06 pm

I see MNdible's point, and I think we need to move incrementally on this towards a moderated vision that's more connected.

Regarding the Myron Orfield point about revenue for Richfield vs Edina schools, I see it as a valid point but not necessarily related. The school portion of property taxes from this commercial zone is inversely proportional to education cost... Lots of parcels paying relatively high property tax, but stores and office parks (and the abundant senior housing) do not have children in school. On the other hand, the city/county portion of property taxes from this commercial zone is positively correlated to the cost of providing for that land use.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby MNdible » February 27th, 2013, 5:47 pm

You're right, of course, as to why a school district desperately wants a mall (or a big factory or office building) in their boundaries -- lots of property taxes and no kids. The inverse is true, which is why school districts will deliberately try to exclude mobile home parks from their boundaries.

But I think you probably overestimate how much cost there is to Edina to host a regional retail center. A little extra police time, a little extra infrastructure cost, but most of the other costs are directly borne through fees or are wholly private costs. No doubt, there is a positive correlation, but I'd think it's a very weak one.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby mattaudio » February 28th, 2013, 8:51 am

My reasoning for a multiway boulevard would be a framework for incremental density as these parcels get redeveloped (such as the Byerlys, or Southdale outlots, etc)... Basically the point is that it would give a defined form for development that would approach France Ave without sitting behind a sea of parking. It would give a reason for businesses to face France instead of facing an inner parking lot (think if this was the case when Potbelly/Five Guys was built) and it would create more of a walkable France due to a parking buffer, multiple vegetated medians, etc. Also, it can happen one "face" at a time, as redevelopment happens over a couple decades, the setback is defined and the slip lane is built as part of the development. The parking (which ought to be short term or dynamically priced metered spots) is really just gravy, not really the primary benefit of a multiway boulevard.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby mattaudio » February 28th, 2013, 9:00 am

Looks like the Edina PC delayed a vote on this, citing concerns about pedestrian access. http://bit.ly/MSPBJ-12dorhe
"the commission still had concerns over pedestrian access and what to do with the store's loading dock. (Similar comments were aired on our Facebook posting of the new designs.)"

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby mattaudio » February 28th, 2013, 11:46 am

Maybe Edina can reference the Smart Code and this:
http://bettercities.net/news-opinion/bl ... -boulevard

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 28th, 2013, 9:00 pm

"Let's deliberately make it more difficult for people to get to the location that they want to go to so they won't drive there as much." I guess I have to salute that line of thinking for its intellectual honesty, but otherwise it doesn't impress me much.

I hate the state of retailing in the US, and it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing regarding our road infrastructure, but until people are willing to spend more money to buy things at more conveniently located but smaller stores, SuperTargets are going to be king.
I don't think I was implying to make it much more difficult to get there by driving.. I have traveled on France in this stretch hundreds of times.. between 4-6 PM on weekdays, midday Saturday, etc. I would say it gets busy but for the sake of making it a better place in the long-haul I don't think losing a lane would make it truly unbearable. This also ignores the vast number of buses that run through here with plenty of vacancy - people can get there conveniently already they simply choose not to.

As Matt proposes in several posts since yours, this is all about allowing for incremental change. It is a chicken and egg thing. Let's be good stewards of our places as city/regional governments and be the first to make the move by changing the road structure, upping transit service, and changing the zoning code/tax format, and developers will incrementally build this place a little better. It will still accommodate cars (a lot of them), but over time will house people and retail in a way that is much better than today.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby Wilco10815 » March 7th, 2013, 3:15 pm

First reply! Long time reader but finally deciding to jump into the shark tank.

A couple of thoughts I wanted to express to rejuvenate some conversation in this thread.

The Southdale renovation is nice. Certainly modernizes the place and new retailers have come in. The mall is stuck in a hard place between the Galleria, MOA, 50th and France, Uptown, and to a lesser extent EP Center. They seem to be doing well. I agree the third floor is a disaster and the entire Urban Trendz from the late 90's did not work. I don't know what you do with that space.

The layout of the mall is confusing and unfortunately Southdale was a victim of bad timing. Had they waited a couple of years on the movie theater they could have done as Rosedale did and put it in where Mervyns was.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds the mall. One could argue, and I would listen, that JC Penney's is as good as gone. Maybe not today but in 5 years that store does not exist. So what happens there? I think you tear down and start over and you will see some type of mixed use product in the NE section of the Southdale space.

The France Avenue trade area is strong. Anyone can see that. France Avenue is auto-oriented and that does not change. The upgrades to the promenade and the desire to connect everything via the promenade should give you a preview to the future of pedestrian connections in the area.

I don't see any additional roadways being constructed to further urbanize the area. Perhaps something between York and France or 494 and 62 area, but nothing connecting to the existing neighborhoods. Neighborhoods would have concern with increased traffic.
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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby Tcmetro » March 7th, 2013, 5:01 pm

Maybe the Southdale 3rd floor could become office space or a school?

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby Mdcastle » March 26th, 2013, 7:02 pm

One thing I kind of wondered if there's a market for a world class indoor waterpark in the area, something along the lines of Edmonton, not the puny thing by the Mall of America. I know it's been talked about for the Mall of America phase II, but it'll likely by another small one.

Right now Southdale seems to be too big and incoherent for just a regional mall. There's be room for an indoor waterpark on the Southdale property if they moved to more structured parking of even reduced the size of the mall.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby John21 » March 31st, 2013, 11:14 am


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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby twincitizen » March 31st, 2013, 7:20 pm

Great headline. After skimming the comments, you can't help but wonder if the Strib intentionally wrote a headline that would get the pro-car-dependency crowd all whipped up.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 31st, 2013, 7:36 pm

Excuse me while I chuckle at that notion... even the picture they show with the subtitle above it reading "The new Byerly’s development is pedestrian- and bike-sensitive" is dominated by cars in the foreground.

I'm glad Edina is recognizing some market demands and trying to shift the status quo a little, but water features and small little pockets won't change the landscape of a 7-lane France Ave and all the giant buildings and parking lots. Even the "smaller" streets like York are quite wide (100+ feet thanks to medians), cutting off the surrounding areas pretty effectively. Just shows the challenges that are ahead in effectively converting suburbs to more urban space.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby MNdible » March 31st, 2013, 8:28 pm

People on this board aren't going to like this, but the below is absolutely true. It doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) improve the pedestrian environment, but if you think you're going to "fix" the suburbs and get rid of cars... you're not.

“They were trying to push us to a better place … but it’s a question of what the marketplace will accept,” Vos said.

Byerly’s is a grocery store that people visit once or twice a week, he said.

“Nobody is walking from [Edina’s] Country Club neighborhood with three bags of groceries,” he said. “We might get more walkers here, but we couldn’t ignore cars, because that’s how most people experience the store.”

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby RailBaronYarr » April 1st, 2013, 8:15 am

It's not about getting rid of cars, but drastically re-shaping the landscape to at least put pedestrians and bicyclists on equal footing with cars. Sure, doing something like this allows the people living in those apartments, maybe a few other folks, the ability to safely and relatively quickly walk to Byerly's. But the reality is that this area is adjacent to investment the city/county/state have all made in car-dependency. France is a pedestrian's nightmare. 62 and 494 are specifically designed to bring cars to and from the area (as evidenced by the massive on/off ramps). This has helped condition people that getting to and from places can really only be done by car (evidenced by the commenters laughing at the notion of going back to walking/biking to get groceries).

I appreciate the efforts by Edina and I'm not doubting that any improvement is better than the status quo, it just is the same as always.. tiny drop of improvement in one case while spending hundreds of millions in other areas maintaining the pattern of development we have been for so long.

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 1st, 2013, 6:23 pm

People on this board aren't going to like this, but the below is absolutely true. It doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) improve the pedestrian environment, but if you think you're going to "fix" the suburbs and get rid of cars... you're not.

“They were trying to push us to a better place … but it’s a question of what the marketplace will accept,” Vos said.

Byerly’s is a grocery store that people visit once or twice a week, he said.

“Nobody is walking from [Edina’s] Country Club neighborhood with three bags of groceries,” he said. “We might get more walkers here, but we couldn’t ignore cars, because that’s how most people experience the store.”
I agree, and think that the realitic transition from suburban to urban involves more than one or two steps.....so, for instance:

START: suburban
--> pockets of urban forms with walkable characteristics
--> a changing dynamic of people who prefer to walk and not super shop, to drive
--> entire neighborhoods/districts becoming urban and 100% walkable
--> new LRT or bus routes due to increased population densities and changing infrastructure
--> semi-urban form with a mix of old suburbia and new urbanism, with nearly double the population density
--> complete societal buy-in that said city/municipality is to be urban and walkable and not suburban/car-driven
FINISH: a nearly 100% urban form

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 1st, 2013, 6:29 pm

It's not about getting rid of cars, but drastically re-shaping the landscape to at least put pedestrians and bicyclists on equal footing with cars. Sure, doing something like this allows the people living in those apartments, maybe a few other folks, the ability to safely and relatively quickly walk to Byerly's. But the reality is that this area is adjacent to investment the city/county/state have all made in car-dependency. France is a pedestrian's nightmare. 62 and 494 are specifically designed to bring cars to and from the area (as evidenced by the massive on/off ramps). This has helped condition people that getting to and from places can really only be done by car (evidenced by the commenters laughing at the notion of going back to walking/biking to get groceries).

I appreciate the efforts by Edina and I'm not doubting that any improvement is better than the status quo, it just is the same as always.. tiny drop of improvement in one case while spending hundreds of millions in other areas maintaining the pattern of development we have been for so long.
Edina's gung-ho about this not because they plan to re-create Edina as some urban enclave out of a super-suburban form (most of it, anyways). Instead, Edina is excited about using density and urbanity and walkability as an excuse to promote these redevelopments on former surface lots on the corners of its most expensive real estate. To increase the tax base in such a way AND get residents on board while doing so is a win-win in the truest sense of the expression!

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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby woofner » April 5th, 2013, 10:57 am

People on this board aren't going to like this, but the below is absolutely true...

“Nobody is walking from [Edina’s] Country Club neighborhood with three bags of groceries,” he said. “We might get more walkers here, but we couldn’t ignore cars, because that’s how most people experience the store.”
The thing about the Country Club neighborhood is true, but a red herring, considering the Country Club neighborhood is two or three miles from the proposed store. I call BS on any claim that no one walks from the Country Club neighborhood to the Lunds on 50th, however. Due to the average age and wealth of the neighborhood, you probably see fewer people walking than to the Lunds on 12th & Hennepin, of course, but certainly some people walk.

Now if you actually look at the neighborhood within walking distance of the store in question, you find thousands of apartments with transit ridership rates comparable or higher than most of South Minneapolis. Clearly these people aren't afraid of walking for transportation, and if they're not doing it now, it's because of the abhorrent pedestrian transportation facilities around Southdale and because of the barrier posed by the frequently freeway-like streets in the area. If instead of making unsupported generalizations you actually look at the form and demographics of the area, I think the out-of-touch position would be that no one will walk to this store.

MNdible, I think I probably went further than you intended in attacking the quote you used to support your statement. I think that very few people are suggesting that all of the suburbs can be fixed, though. Instead, most people are looking at areas of opportunity such as Southdale to offer more lifestyle choice in suburbs. There are more of these areas of opportunity than you might think, but of course there will never be a future where 100% of the suburbs are walkable.
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Re: Southdale Center - Edina

Postby MNdible » April 5th, 2013, 1:16 pm

I don't disagree with a single word that you wrote. I agree that we can and should make the area more pedestrian friendly. And I think that their proposal is a major step in that direction.

But I think that Lund's is correct in their assumption that for the foreseeable future (at least the lifetime of this store), the significant majority of its users will still be arriving by car, and so any design will necessarily be a compromise with that reality.

Even the store at 12th and Hennepin makes very real compromises to balance this reality.


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