The Venue at Dinkytown - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE)

[sanguinic]

I agree, go4guy. The two-story section along 14th is an improvement over its predecessor, in both scale and materials (it's great to see so much richly tinted brick), and the setbacks on the rest of the project are thoughtfully placed. I'm not sure why this project raised such a stink, while the hideously overscaled and cheap-looking Marshall complex across the street seemed to sail though the approval process.

[FISHMANPET]

SD claims The Marshall is what caused the group to form and this was what was happening they got geared up, but... I just don't believe that.

I suppose it reinforces the idea that they only want to protect the 4 block core of Dinkytown, and literally don't care about the garbage that goes up outside that region.

[Nick]

[schmitzm03]

[go4guy]

This appears to be complete, with the exception of some finishing touches. This project looks great. The materials, from what I can tell, are very good. Much unlike the Marshall, which looks very cheap. The setbacks also do a very good job of hiding the "tower" portion from anyone standing on 14th. Blends in very well.

[Wedgeguy]

Riding by on my bike today I saw that there is a restaurant that has opened on the corner across from the Target Express. I finally feels like there is a street scape along fifth and parking lots and run down buildings. I like how some of the store in the center section are set back a few feet from where the corner buildings are at. I believe that Target Express will be a nice asset for dinky town.

[xandrex]

Riding by on my bike today I saw that there is a restaurant that has opened on the corner across from the Target Express. I finally feels like there is a street scape along fifth and parking lots and run down buildings. I like how some of the store in the center section are set back a few feet from where the corner buildings are at. I believe that Target Express will be a nice asset for dinky town.

The store has been blowing past sales goals and always seems busy. If this keeps up, I think Target may hasten opening them. Unless the new CEO is wary of them. He's definitely interested in stirring things up.

[Wedgeguy]

Like any concept there will be strong and weak store . Location and demographics are going to be what they will really have to look at for that concept expansion. I personally see it as their only real way to expand here for the near future. Suburbs are saturated, and going out of the US does not seem to generally work, ask Best Buy and the Canadians.!! A new look at the urban dime store!

[Anondson]

If it is that much above goals it might accelerate one appearing in North Loop, Uptown, or Loring Park and expanding to other cities.

[Wedgeguy]

I see the North Loop and Loring as being too close to the DT store for retail overlap. But I do see an Express working in Uptown and Downtown St. Paul. Both those areas have the right demographics and population concentrated base that does not have a Target close by. Would be nice to see a Target Express as part of a Macy's St. Paul redevelopment project. Would be close enough to the LRT station.

[xandrex]

I see the North Loop and Loring as being too close to the DT store for retail overlap. But I do see an Express working in Uptown and Downtown St. Paul. Both those areas have the right demographics and population concentrated base that does not have a Target close by. Would be nice to see a Target Express as part of a Macy's St. Paul redevelopment project. Would be close enough to the LRT station.

While I don't foresee one entering the North Loop market anytime soon, the difference between one, say, across from ElsewhereHouse to the DT Target is only a half mile less than from the Dinkytown Target Express to the Quarry (1.5 miles vs. about 2 miles). In an increasingly dense and urban downtown, there's bound to be a store at the Target Express/CVS/Walgreens level (though arguably Target Express is at least a half step above the other two generally) that will want in the North Loop market.

[Wedgeguy]

I see the North Loop and Loring as being too close to the DT store for retail overlap. But I do see an Express working in Uptown and Downtown St. Paul. Both those areas have the right demographics and population concentrated base that does not have a Target close by. Would be nice to see a Target Express as part of a Macy's St. Paul redevelopment project. Would be close enough to the LRT station.

While I don't foresee one entering the North Loop market anytime soon, the difference between one, say, across from ElsewhereHouse to the DT Target is only a half mile less than from the Dinkytown Target Express to the Quarry (1.5 miles vs. about 2 miles). In an increasingly dense and urban downtown, there's bound to be a store at the Target Express/CVS/Walgreens level (though arguably Target Express is at least a half step above the other two generally) that will want in the North Loop market.

The thing with the Dinkytown TX is they have a student base of 35,000+ and faculty that are there at least 5 days a week if not more. At this point the NL does not yet have the density to really support it. But if you are a long range planner I'd be thinking about getting some land bought so that you can be a part of the area in the future. They would want to get in before Walgreens or CVS start popping in stores. But TX would have a much better chance of survival even if the others went in. Just not sure at this point that the $/SF would be enough to justify building at this time.

I'm amazed to see how much of the NL has been redeveloped. Considering how little there is of empty space left in the Mill District, if the NL fill as fast as the Mills District did then you could justify building a TX in the next few years. But at this point there is too much under developed land that needs to be figured into the equation as to if there will be enough future residents to justify it. IMO

[Wedgeguy]

I see the North Loop and Loring as being too close to the DT store for retail overlap. But I do see an Express working in Uptown and Downtown St. Paul. Both those areas have the right demographics and population concentrated base that does not have a Target close by. Would be nice to see a Target Express as part of a Macy's St. Paul redevelopment project. Would be close enough to the LRT station.

While I don't foresee one entering the North Loop market anytime soon, the difference between one, say, across from ElsewhereHouse to the DT Target is only a half mile less than from the Dinkytown Target Express to the Quarry (1.5 miles vs. about 2 miles). In an increasingly dense and urban downtown, there's bound to be a store at the Target Express/CVS/Walgreens level (though arguably Target Express is at least a half step above the other two generally) that will want in the North Loop market.

The thing with the Dinkytown TX is they have a student base of 35,000+ and faculty that are there at least 5 days a week if not more. At this point the NL does not yet have the density to really support it. But if you are a long range planner I'd be thinking about getting some land bought so that you can be a part of the area in the future. They would want to get in before Walgreens or CVS start popping in stores. But TX would have a much better chance of survival even if the others went in. Just not sure at this point that the $/SF would be enough to justify building at this time.

I'm amazed to see how much of the NL has been redeveloped. Considering how little there is of empty space left in the Mill District, if the NL fill as fast as the Mills District did then you could justify building a TX in the next few years. But at this point there is too much under developed land that needs to be figured into the equation as to if there will be enough future residents to justify it. IMO

[xandrex]

The thing with the Dinkytown TX is they have a student base of 35,000+ and faculty that are there at least 5 days a week if not more. At this point the NL does not yet have the density to really support it. But if you are a long range planner I'd be thinking about getting some land bought so that you can be a part of the area in the future. They would want to get in before Walgreens or CVS start popping in stores. But TX would have a much better chance of survival even if the others went in. Just not sure at this point that the $/SF would be enough to justify building at this time.

I'm amazed to see how much of the NL has been redeveloped. Considering how little there is of empty space left in the Mill District, if the NL fill as fast as the Mills District did then you could justify building a TX in the next few years. But at this point there is too much under developed land that needs to be figured into the equation as to if there will be enough future residents to justify it. IMO

In the short term, I agree. The North Loop isn't really ready for a Target Express. But projecting out 10 years, I think we're going to see either this or a CVS/Walgreens emerge that offers expanded--but not full--grocery.



To bring this back to Dinkytown:

The remaining spaces at the Venue will be Starbucks and Great Clips. Open by mid October.

Of the 4 businesses that are or will be open in the Venue and the Marshall, not one is a small business (Target Express, Starbucks, and Great Clips are all chains; Gina + Will is a spinoff concept). That certainly could add further fuel (and ire) to the Save Dinkytown crowd.

[lordmoke]

Wasn't Duffy's going to reopen in The Venue? Is that not happening now?

[Minneapolisite]

To bring this back to Dinkytown:

The remaining spaces at the Venue will be Starbucks and Great Clips. Open by mid October.

Of the 4 businesses that are or will be open in the Venue and the Marshall, not one is a small business (Target Express, Starbucks, and Great Clips are all chains; Gina + Will is a spinoff concept). That certainly could add further fuel (and ire) to the Save Dinkytown crowd.

Is anyone really surprised here? The other new build down the block is filled with chains too.

[Nathan]

Wasn't Duffy's going to reopen in The Venue? Is that not happening now?

The family said they were fine with the construction and that they would look into re-opening in the new building but they never committed to that.

[Nathan]

To bring this back to Dinkytown:

The remaining spaces at the Venue will be Starbucks and Great Clips. Open by mid October.

Of the 4 businesses that are or will be open in the Venue and the Marshall, not one is a small business (Target Express, Starbucks, and Great Clips are all chains; Gina + Will is a spinoff concept). That certainly could add further fuel (and ire) to the Save Dinkytown crowd.

Is anyone really surprised here? The other new build down the block is filled with chains too.

Good thing it's only the new builds that attract chains in dense university areas...

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9802086 ... Q-6thw!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9735762 ... TnpcKg!2e0

It must be that we need to build more retail spaces in the area. The U could support retail for days.

[RailBaronYarr]

Yeah, I guess SD can certainly point to this (though Gina + Will, a one-off spinoff concept of a non-profit retailer with a whopping 30 locations, selling used clothing certainly doesn't scream "chain" to me). As noted, the arguments were that 1) old buildings will continue to be converted to chains anyway, 2) there is certainly precedent for individually-owned businesses to open in new spaces, and 3) building more retail space now (and oddball stuff on the fringe of the neighborhood) will allow small businesses to keep a foothold, especially in the future.

I'm still waiting for the outcry from Save Dinkytown towards the 6-story, ground floor retail, no setbacks Maison.

[xandrex]

Yeah, I guess SD can certainly point to this (though Gina + Will, a one-off spinoff concept of a non-profit retailer with a whopping 30 locations, selling used clothing certainly doesn't scream "chain" to me).

I think Gina + Will is unique and certainly isn't at the same level as, say, Starbucks. But I have to quibble a bit with not calling it a chain. It's currently the first iteration, but Goodwill indicated in a few articles that they are very much interested in expanding this concept. Its nonprofit status is irrelevant, but wouldn't anything with 30 stores be a chain? It'll probably get a pass from most people since it's trendy in a different way than an Apple Store or North Face is trendy and not everyone will make the link to Goodwill.

Save Dinkytown will almost certainly use trot this out as an example of what happens when you let Dinkytown "not be dinky" anymore. It's foolish, of course. But that won't stop them.