[Archived] Uptown Retail & Restaurant News 2012-17

[grant1simons2]

What's the one in thinking of that's connected to moziac and next to lagoon? That for sure is a sports bar. They have NFL ticket too

[clf]

NFL Sunday Ticket - Bar Louie, Lyles, Lyndale Tap House to name a few

[ECtransplant]

What's the one in thinking of that's connected to moziac and next to lagoon? That for sure is a sports bar. They have NFL ticket too

You mean the one that doesn't allow black people?

[TommyT]

What's the one in thinking of that's connected to moziac and next to lagoon? That for sure is a sports bar. They have NFL ticket too

You mean the one that doesn't allow black people?

Now Now... that's only during their evening hours.

[WHS]

I generally dislike "we don't need another _______" arguments that some people make about whatever business they don't like, but man...enough sports bars already (Bulldog, Tap House, Herkimer just in LynLake)! I don't think the Cause situation was ever about "bros", gentrification, or any other buzzword. It was about having a music venue vs. not having a music venue. People get sensitive when you take the only one away.

The thing is, so far as I'm aware, there currently isn't actually a sports bar in Uptown. As someone who moved from out of state 6 years ago and has lived Uptown and South Minneapolis since, what little decent sports bars there are around this city are located either downtown or in the burbs. The only place in Uptown with NFL Sunday Ticket used to be Old Chicago (no more), and non of the remaining spots are setup to service patrons on large sports days (see: College Football Saturdays, NFL Sundays, March Madness, MLB Playoffs).

Contra twincitizen, I think this is actually about bros, at least in part. My issue with a sports bar replacing Cause isn't that I feel like the area needs a music venue more than it needs somewhere you can go to watch football, it's that I'd like to keep a healthy mix of the population coming to the area. For me, economic diversity is about appealing to many different sorts of people as much as it's about providing a broad range of services.

[xandrex]

I generally dislike "we don't need another _______" arguments that some people make about whatever business they don't like, but man...enough sports bars already (Bulldog, Tap House, Herkimer just in LynLake)! I don't think the Cause situation was ever about "bros", gentrification, or any other buzzword. It was about having a music venue vs. not having a music venue. People get sensitive when you take the only one away.

The thing is, so far as I'm aware, there currently isn't actually a sports bar in Uptown. As someone who moved from out of state 6 years ago and has lived Uptown and South Minneapolis since, what little decent sports bars there are around this city are located either downtown or in the burbs. The only place in Uptown with NFL Sunday Ticket used to be Old Chicago (no more), and non of the remaining spots are setup to service patrons on large sports days (see: College Football Saturdays, NFL Sundays, March Madness, MLB Playoffs).

Contra twincitizen, I think this is actually about bros, at least in part. My issue with a sports bar replacing Cause isn't that I feel like the area needs a music venue more than it needs somewhere you can go to watch football, it's that I'd like to keep a healthy mix of the population coming to the area. For me, economic diversity is about appealing to many different sorts of people as much as it's about providing a broad range of services.

I'm curious how replacing a hipster bar with a bro bar would have significantly changed the economic diversity of the clientele. I have been in Cause a few times (it's not my favorite bar...I found it a little annoying, but I've gone with friends) and it was mainly filled with people of middle class means...or the type who grew up middle class and dress grungy because it's cool and they're a "starving" musician and stuff.

I just don't know that keeping Cause around actually keeps economic diversity at Lyn-Lake. It just keeps the intersection slightly more counter-cultural than a sports bar might.

[Minneapolisite]

Maintaining cultural diversity, yes, and this is totally about gentrification. When an already healthy area is being overly sanitized and homogenized (more of the same crowds at Lyndale, Herkimer, etc) through financial muscle flexing (like Lime up the block) it most certainly is gentrification. What are these new places saving the neighborhood from? It's not suffering from serious crime, serious social, economic woes, lack of investment in the form of boarded up abandoned commercial and residential structures, it's just pure yuppification plain and simple. Lynlake is better because of unique establishments like Cause. It's the only serious live-music in the South/SW Mpls area. Otherwise, these people would have to make the trek out to West Bank or Seward for such a spot.

[seanrichardryan]

...
I'd say any house over $300k (regardless of square footage) means you've got a buyer(s) over $100k gross a year. Considering the recent SFR price trends in the Wedge (David has acknowledged a while back in the 2320 Colfax thread that many are going for well over $500k nowadays), I'd say it's a fair assumption to say that one of two things is happening: 1) person/family pulling in $150k+ a year, 2) person/family receiving a sizeable donation from their parents for a down payment, and they're still pulling in $100k a year. Both of those things are solidly upper middle class. I don't have the ability to slice the data, but I'd wager a good chunk that the economic and racial diversity of people owning detached single family homes in the Wedge is pretty low - wealthier white people and old white people who have been there a while.
.

Well, Lisa Bender's In-laws bought for her a 300K house on 24th & Dupont and she makes $82,362 a year. She is also a whitey.

[xandrex]

Maintaining cultural diversity, yes, and this is totally about gentrification. When an already healthy area is being overly sanitized and homogenized (more of the same crowds at Lyndale, Herkimer, etc) through financial muscle flexing (like Lime up the block) it most certainly is gentrification. What are these new places saving the neighborhood from? It's not suffering from serious crime, serious social, economic woes, lack of investment in the form of boarded up abandoned commercial and residential structures, it's just pure yuppification plain and simple. Lynlake is better because of unique establishments like Cause. It's the only serious live-music in the South/SW Mpls area. Otherwise, these people would have to make the trek out to West Bank or Seward for such a spot.

Is it really gentrification if it's cultural? Sure, you hate bros, but pushing one group of primarily middle-class whites out for another group of primarily middle-class whites is nothing but preferences.

[WHS]

I don't hate bros. Some of my best friends are bros! And I actually hang out at Moto-i and Herkimer a good deal more than Cause, truth be told. But I think it's really hard to argue that those two bars, much like the bars and restaurants further west on Lake, aren't whiter and wealthier -- and less welcoming to people who aren't white or wealthy -- than joints like Cause. I'm also not sure why "cultural homogeneity" isn't something we should worry about when it comes to gentrification. Isn't that the precise thing that people around here hate about the suburbs?

Different subcultures all stacked on top of one another, including but not limited to different racial and income groups, are what make cities vibrant.

[EOst]

Isn't it a little rich to complain about hipster bars being pushed out as "gentrification" when those hipster bars wouldn't have been there if they hadn't started gentrifying the neighborhood in the first place?

[WHS]

No? Gentrification is fine, even desirable, to a certain point. That doesn't mean we have to look the other way as neighborhoods are transformed into wealthy, white enclaves.

[min-chi-cbus]

I'm personally a general proponent of Laissez Faire economic policy -- hands off, don't force things that aren't economically advantageous. I.e. Let the marketplace decide what is ultimately more in demand and let supply satiate that demand.

It's not a catch-all for every situation, but to let "gentrification" occur in an already gentrified Uptown area with higher tier commercial and residential buildings and tenants who pay rent premiums to be there isn't the exception to that rule, and allowing the marketplace to continue to foster prosperity (in all its forms) does not cause the level of hopelessness and strife that occurs when gentrification tears apart the lives of the lower class. The primary difference is that the lower class has nowhere to turn to when prices kick them out of their own neighborhoods, while the middle class can still find other similar options OR themselves start gentrifying other areas of town (the ripple effect could still impact the lower class negatively, but the impact is much softer).

Obviously there are exceptions to everything, and if say Lyn-Lake and greater Uptown were historic neighborhoods then perhaps any gentrification could destroy the historic character of the area. The other, more worthy, notable exception is the manner in which the current/previous tenant Cause is being vacated from the premises, which seems like the bigger issue.

[EOst]

No? Gentrification is fine, even desirable, to a certain point. That doesn't mean we have to look the other way as neighborhoods are transformed into wealthy, white enclaves.

So it was fine when the hipsters kicked the previous residents out of Uptown, but now that they're getting kicked out, suddenly kicking people out because of rising desirability is bad?

[kirby96]

I'll ask what the increasing gentrification/cultural homogeneity of Uptown might mean to Minneapolis planning elsewhere. I've always believed that while the gentrification might make an area of town a little less interesting, a rising tide generally lifts all boats and creates new 'interesting' opportunities elsewhere. I used to live in St. Paul, and the relatives/locals would always complain about what was happening to Grand Ave. I'd always point out that when Grand Ave was 'the way they liked it', Selby-Dale was one of the worst intersections of the city. Clearly the gentrification of Grand caused interesting businesses to move over there and now it's much, much better (although now starting to over-gentrify a bit itself).

So back to Uptown: I'm a fan of dive bars, and in the past 10 years, they are dropping like flies. The Country Bar being the latest. CC Club seems like it is ripe for the next bistro/yuppie hangout development. Meanwhile, Nicollet from 38th to 46th has a great mix of businesses. However, you can't open a 'real' bar there according to Minneapolis neighborhood rules. Could we see a situation where the over-gentrification of uptown causes development issues elsewhere (i.e. certain businesses are de facto zoned out of existence)? Not to limit it to just bars, but the people that hang out at the places that get pushed out don't just go away, so where do they go now? Should Minneapolis actively do things to encourage the establishment of the more interesting places elsewhere or just let it go? If so, how do you do that without playing favorites?

...long ramble over...

[mattaudio]

We have plenty (or at least a handful) of dive bars in the Deep South. You just have to be fine with bottles or Coors/Mich Golden/etc on tap. But they are cheap. I think we had an UrbanMSP happy hour at one last summer...

[kirby96]

RIght, but I'm not considering beer bars to be real bars. The way the gentrification is going, I can foresee a time when it is nigh on impossible to get a cocktail for under $15 in a zip code higher than 55404.

It's not just bars though. There are other types of businesses that exist/existed in Uptown/LynLake that would have a difficult time organically evolving in many other parts of the city (i.e. I used to have my car repaired at a really cool garage/house that I'd be surprised if it still exists), thus somewhat limiting my theory of gentrification leading to the developement of other interesting nodes.

[mplsjaromir]

How many places in Minneapolis south of Lake Street have a full bar? I can only think of the Rail Station, Tailgate and Town Hall Lanes.

[Nathan]

pats tap, cafe Maude, it's hard to remember which ones only have beer and wine...

[xandrex]

I don't hate bros. Some of my best friends are bros! And I actually hang out at Moto-i and Herkimer a good deal more than Cause, truth be told. But I think it's really hard to argue that those two bars, much like the bars and restaurants further west on Lake, aren't whiter and wealthier -- and less welcoming to people who aren't white or wealthy -- than joints like Cause. I'm also not sure why "cultural homogeneity" isn't something we should worry about when it comes to gentrification. Isn't that the precise thing that people around here hate about the suburbs?

Different subcultures all stacked on top of one another, including but not limited to different racial and income groups, are what make cities vibrant.

I wasn't saying you did. I was pointing more to Minneapolisite, who generally clumps anyone who isn't almost-too-hipster-to-function as a "bro". There's no love lost between him and that group, whoever that may be.

I really don't mind Cause staying. I think having a mix of businesses and cultures is great. I was simply pointing out that people were starting to talk about "gentrification" (in the dirtiest of senses...when the bros emerge) and economic diversity. The fact of the matter is that Cause and the sports bar that was planned are only different in which culture they appeal to. Both, however, are/would cater to generally white, middle-class folks. Sure, you might get some starving artist types or a guy in a rock band who are poor. But overwhelmingly, the crowd at just about any hipster or bro bar grew up in middle-class families, learning middle-class values. Sure, some of them are poor now (bars in this area do tend to skew to 20- and 30-somethings who haven't hit prime earning years), but do I really get to call myself poor if I'm temporarily earning less money, but I grew up with values that are decidedly not working class? It seems disingenuous to pretend that would count as diversity in the economic sense.

Bars are a luxury good in the economic sense, so we're definitely playing with anecdata here, but even as Uptown has become more wealthy and presumably more white (although it was pretty white to begin with), I still have seen plenty of racial diversity out at the very bro bars people are worried about. When I've walked late at night through Uptown on a Friday or Saturday, I'm often struck by how the number of African-American, Asian, and other minority groups often can hold their own against tipsy white girls in miniskirts and too-high heels.