Southdale Area - Edina

[Wedgeguy]

Dave and Buster's is well underway. A new stairs was just put in inside from second floor (the top level of the parking ramp) to the Dave and Buster's entrance on third.

How much of the 3rd floor will the establishment be using??

[Anondson]

I saw in a city document, it was supposed to be half of the entire third floor. The old food court plus the whole side out to the rounded space where Foot Locker was, leaving the side of third floor adjacent to Macy's unoccupied. Don't know if something changed with plans because the side next to Macy's is under construction too. About 50% more than I saw proposed in the original plans is under construction.

[Wedgeguy]

I saw in a city document, it was supposed to be half of the entire third floor. The old food court plus the whole side out to the rounded space where Foot Locker was, leaving the side of third floor adjacent to Macy's unoccupied. Don't know if something changed with plans because the side next to Macy's is under construction too. About 50% more than I saw proposed in the original plans is under construction.

Thanks for the info. Could be with Busters that they found a few tenants that felt that they could get some energy and sales off of being close to Busters. The food court was a lousy anchor for the 3rd floor from the beginning. What they had for tenant restaurants quality was not enough to draw enough people to get them past the other stores up there. If Buster and Dave's is a success then those spaces will become some of their top potential for getting higher rents. The sightline problems of a 3rd floor can really hurt a tenants sales. How many people enter from inside the mall and by those spaces and not from the parking ramp will make the final determination on how well the rest of the third floor does.

[twincitizen]

6600 France: http://gis.hennepin.us/property/map/def ... 2824410001

I'm surprised nothing has ever been proposed for this enormous parcel just west of Southdale. I was really surprised that it's all one giant parcel, nearly 22 acres! This is essentially 3 whole city blocks to redevelop. The office buildings date to 1967 according to Hennepin County, at least some of the structures on site could be demolished rather than reused. Perhaps the southern office building (6800, the taller one) could be saved and surrounded by new development.

Transportation-wise, I think roundabouts at 66th/Valleyview and 69th/Valleyview make sense.
A bonus would be formalizing 67th and 68th as public streets through the site, as there are already signalized intersections at France for the entrances (really for the entrances/exits to Southdale, but still)

Surely this property owner has to be considering redevelopment.

[HiawathaGuy]

Surely this property owner has to be considering redevelopment.

Agreed!

I also hope that Southdale's other 3 corners see development.

[Archiapolis]

6600 France: http://gis.hennepin.us/property/map/def ... 2824410001

I'm surprised nothing has ever been proposed for this enormous parcel just west of Southdale. I was really surprised that it's all one giant parcel, nearly 22 acres! This is essentially 3 whole city blocks to redevelop. The office buildings date to 1967 according to Hennepin County, at least some of the structures on site could be demolished rather than reused. Perhaps the southern office building (6800, the taller one) could be saved and surrounded by new development.

Transportation-wise, I think roundabouts at 66th/Valleyview and 69th/Valleyview make sense.
A bonus would be formalizing 67th and 68th as public streets through the site, as there are already signalized intersections at France for the entrances (really for the entrances/exits to Southdale, but still)

Surely this property owner has to be considering redevelopment.

Maybe, but it seems apparent that getting projects approved on France is tricky. Whatever happened with that defunct project south of the hospital parking ramp west of France (for example)?

[Anondson]

France is a tough problem where residents nearby get outraged shouting "... but the comprehensive plan!" as if it is wisdom from the heavens. There are prime spots in the north west, north east, and south east corners. I question that anything would happen in these under used empty corners that would be worth the cost of building it

[sdho]

France is a tough problem where residents nearby get outraged shouting "... but the comprehensive plan!" as if it is wisdom from the heavens.

And if residents want to NIMBY their city into the ground, so be it. I hear there's a city bordering the Southdale District to the east, with better transit access, cheaper land, and more accommodating approvals for developers. *cough*

[Anondson]

I work in the Southdale area, I have a point of observation about the France Ave sidewalk project. I have never yet seeing the new crosswalks not blocked by cars stopping on them. Well, maybe during evening hours when I'm at home it's not happening, but during the daytime? Nearly absolutely every time one lane or another has cars stopped on the new crosswalks. Even caught a Metro Mobility stopped on the crossing markings.

Changing mindset will take far more than new painted markings...

[EOst]

I always make semi-glaring eye contact with those drivers when I'm crossing. It makes me feel better, at least, though it's probably counterproductive.

[RailBaronYarr]

I noticed that as well. Brand new, bright white paint with at least one car on it at every direction. My wife even pointed it out.

[MNdible]

It's not counterproductive. People feel sheepish when they're caught doing something wrong, and they'll be less inclined to continue that bad habit.

[min-chi-cbus]

As somebody who's been on both ends of that confrontation, I assure you that glaring, pointing, yelling, or throwing any other kind of hissy fit isn't going to be all that productive. I mean, there's a small chance that the person will remember the reason why they were at the receiving end of blatant passive aggression, but most likely they'll just be mad, and possibly decide to do something about it/vent!

All I have to say is be ready for whatever if you decide to intentionally aggravate somebody in a vehicle. I get why it's frustrating as a pedestrian but it's really not that hard to just walk around either. They way I see it is that you shouldn't do anything that you wouldn't otherwise do if you were face to face with the person with whom you're planning to confront -- if you wouldn't do it face to face, don't do it when behind the wheel or elsewhere for that matter.

[sdho]

I work in the Southdale area, I have a point of observation about the France Ave sidewalk project. I have never yet seeing the new crosswalks not blocked by cars stopping on them. Well, maybe during evening hours when I'm at home it's not happening, but during the daytime? Nearly absolutely every time one lane or another has cars stopped on the new crosswalks. Even caught a Metro Mobility stopped on the crossing markings.

Changing mindset will take far more than new painted markings...

I wrote about this issue in my review of the project last fall... https://streets.mn/2014/10/13/france-ave ... at-40-mph/. In defense of the motorists, the crosswalk location is much farther back than we're accustomed to in Minneapolis or the first ring (although you do see the super setback crosswalks on newer stroads farther out). This is done for shorter crossing distances, and so you can have a refuge island without interfering with left turns. The super set back ones on France also allow a right turn on red to happen completely beyond the crosswalk, which is a nice safety benefit if people use it that way.

But, yeah. People do need to learn to stay behind. I wouldn't smack on their hood, but I've never provoked anyone by looking directly at them.

In any case, it's certainly an improvement over the old markings, which were literally no crosswalk markings at any intersection between Crosstown and Minnesota Drive. Didn't even have stop lines, so cars stopped all over the place, a full car length in variation.

[sdho]

They tried the super setback crosswalks when rebuilding 76th St, and it's been a failure with motorists in Richfield, too.

In fact, in case there were any doubt, here's a Richfield police officer chilling in the crosswalk:



It's set so far back, and the crosswalk is supposed to serve a sidewalk that's right next to the curb. The detour is so significant that the sidewalk plows don't even clear the actual crossing, and pedestrians tend to just cross at the corner rather than walking around to the designated crosswalk.

On France, however, they had a lot of space to play with at the corners, and the transition feels more natural.

[PhilmerPhil]

Do cars pull into crosswalks because we allow right turns on red, which conditions people to jut out and look for oncoming traffic?

[seanrichardryan]

No.

[grant1simons2]

For right turns yes. Even at stop signs. When I drive in Minneapolis, there's always a car blocking where I can see. It's always a risk taking turns in the city. Especially onto Nicollet ughhh. I feel like such a dick jutting forward, but I also don't want to destroy my car. In the case of the suburbs (I forgot we were on this thread for a second) sometimes there's a tree blocking the way, or another car, or any object. Sometimes it's because there's such a small window of opportunity.

[PhilmerPhil]

That's fine. Inching forward into the crosswalk is required to be able to see if it's safe to go. The issue I have is with drivers just pulling right into the crosswalk with their heads turned to the left for oncoming traffic. Like not stopping at the stop line first, then proceeding to inch out.

[min-chi-cbus]

Do cars pull into crosswalks because we allow right turns on red, which conditions people to jut out and look for oncoming traffic?

That's a big driver, at least, for me.