urbanMSP

Metro Transit leadership posted some takeaways from their listening tour. While acknowledging a problem is not the same as fixing it, I was pretty impressed by their willingness to be straightforward and admit the current state of the system is unacceptable. It’s also exciting that several talked about increasing frequency — although I really hope it didn’t take a listening tour to think that one up.

https://www.metrotransit.org/listening- ... n-transit-

https://www.startribune.com/crime-jumpe ... 600341173/

Unfortunate to see this after Metro Transit's efforts the past few months. I really hope 2024 is the year we see the light rail's public perception turn around, but stuff like this doesn't help.

I did notice when I was at the U of M a couple weeks ago that the trains themselves seemed to be in rough shape--lots of broken and taped over windows, peeling graphics, and other wear, not to mention many of the stations just look filthy. Not sure how much of it is just age related (the S70s are now 10 years old) but I think that stuff also seems connected to rider perception of safety as well, albeit more indirectly than stuff like drug use.

On a more positive note, over the few hours I was there all of the trains were pretty full and I did see quite a few CSOs and police officers! Maybe having more presence after dark (7:00 and later) should be prioritized? That seems to be when a lot of the more serious stuff happens.

That was quite the ramble... oh well.

Like all crime data, the number is basically made up--I wouldn't worry about the chart. The situation has been steadily improving for about a year, though my personal "days since experiencing a train fiasco" counter is only at five.

Oh absolutely, I agree! The numbers also vary depending on which news source you get the information from. I just fear that while *we* may not worry about the crime numbers as much, others will see it as a reason to not ride or support our rail system.

The only number that mater are the ridership numbers, if transit is viewed as "safe" then more and more people will be willing to ride again, although if there's still a lingering fear about it then the recent increase might start to slow down and or plateau.

Yeah, I ride public transit more than most people (although I don't rely regularly on the light rail), and it's been basically non-existent that I've seen crime in the literal sense of someone doing something that they could plausibly be prosecuted for. When people talk about crime on transit, they're talking about "crime" in the sense of anti-social activities or disorder. That runs the gamut from things that directly affect other riders (smoking), indirectly affect other riders (holding the door), or just make the experience less pleasant (extremely sticky floor, discarded foil on a seat, etc.).

My read on the situation from recent rides is that the first category is way down, the second category is moderately down but still a big issue, and there hasn't been a ton of progress on the final category (maybe in part because Metro Transit isn't just short on operators and cops, they're also short on custodians).

But as noted above, the proof is in the ridership, which continues to tick up. If conditions were preventing people from returning to transit, we would see stronger evidence of that. Instead, ridership on the trains is outpacing ridership on the system overall, and it's important to remember that as ridership recovery reaches 2/3rds of pre-pandemic numbers, that train frequency is only at 2/3rds of pre-pandemic. Clearly there are more factors at play than just the headline-grabbing lines about crime stats.

Is smoking on the train a non-prosecutable offense? It should be since it's a health and fire hazard. The latter probably isn't likely, but lighting a cigarette requires fire, and god forbid that tiny flame somehow turns into an inferno.

I mean smoking on a train/bus probably should be a prosecutable offense but I think a busy and focused DA office should be spending their energy and attention elsewhere on far more serious offenses. Even if some is caught dead to rights for smoking a cigarette on a train (multiple witnesses, video footage, etc) is it really worth the time and expense in taking that case to trial? Almost certainly not and I would suspect most cops understand that and would just let the offender go with just a warning.

It might be advantageous to turn those type of activities into a citation like a speeding ticket. Now if someone causes significant damage to the car or direct harm to another rider that changes the situation significantly

In my opinion, anti-social behavior on transit is like the transit equivalent of speeding/road rage on a highway, and should be treated as such. I agree with speeding-ticket style citations, which seems to be what they are doing with fare evasion now, but it should expand to other unwanted behavior. There's a 'reckless driving' charge, right? 'reckless transit riding'? I dunno, I want to look into that some more when I have the time.

I remember awhile ago if eating on the bus is considered an offensive because iirc they have it listed as things to not do inside of every vehicle along side smoking and blasting music without any headphones.
I'm not going to pretend I used to always do that when I needed to get to an afternoon class, but to be fair it was always outside of rush hour and always something I could put back in a container and backpack halfway through

I mean smoking on a train/bus probably should be a prosecutable offense but I think a busy and focused DA office should be spending their energy and attention elsewhere on far more serious offenses. Even if some is caught dead to rights for smoking a cigarette on a train (multiple witnesses, video footage, etc) is it really worth the time and expense in taking that case to trial? Almost certainly not and I would suspect most cops understand that and would just let the offender go with just a warning.

It might be advantageous to turn those type of activities into a citation like a speeding ticket. Now if someone causes significant damage to the car or direct harm to another rider that changes the situation significantly

I think it's worth it to bring to trial. Maybe if people know the pain-in-the-butt process they have to go through if they get caught smoking on the train or bus then they'll refrain from doing it.

Since a train is fully enclosed besides the short time when the doors are opened at stations, I consider smoking inside a train to be a direct harm to other passengers because of secondhand smoke, and for those with asthma it's even more of a direct harm. If a smoker is putting out their cigarette using the interior of the train, then that's damage to the train, and there's also the smoke damage to the interior of the train.

It's a shame that in 2024 we're having problems with people smoking on buses and trains, and I don't think a bunch of signs and announcements telling people not to smoke is working (might even be doing the opposite with reverse psychology). I think the only way the smoking issue will improve is getting tough on smokers.

Committee of the Whole 2/7/2024 Safety and Security Auction Plan 2023 Q4 Update presentation (PDF)
https://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meetin ... ation.aspx

I know it was already mentioned the data is 'made up' but interesting to see some of the initiatives being implemented nonetheless.

[snip] or just make the experience less pleasant (extremely sticky floor, discarded foil on a seat, etc.).

My read on the situation from recent rides is that the first category is way down, the second category is moderately down but still a big issue, and there hasn't been a ton of progress on the final category (maybe in part because Metro Transit isn't just short on operators and cops, they're also short on custodians).

Cleanliness has honestly always been an area of opportunity for Metro Transit from my experience. Some of this is of course due to having a tiny outlier of riders who leave trash and filth everywhere they go. Nonetheless they do need to step up their game on cleaning if they want to better their image. IMO all of the 'METRO' network services (except the Red line for now) and perhaps the top ten heaviest local routes need the vehicles to be swept for litter and spills after every roundtrip or two. They are doing this on the light rail lines I believe. However the buses should be getting cleaned as well. I've been on a few D Line buses lately where there were literal piles of trash on board, like you could fill a small trash bag. And the floors were so dirty you couldn't see the yellow warning stripes around the rear steps or artic joint on the flat sections.

There is a very hardworking group of vehicle servicers and maintenance staff doing their best to keep the fleet and stations clean. I'm not trying to say they aren't. I just think on the highly patronized lines there needs to be a more proactive approach as well vs. just letting a bus filth up like it's a trash truck and then dump it out at the end of the night.

Having a janitor crew on staff at Mall of America, Brooklyn Center, Union Depot, and Target Field would help a lot. Maybe a few other locations as well.

Perhaps also roll out some PSAs showing the cleaning crews who have to clean up other people's messes on buses, trains, and stations. Like smoking, it confounds me that so many people just don't care about littering on our taxpayer funded vehicles and stations.

I also wonder if having small trash bins on the trains would help, but you would need to make sure they don't get overfilled, and there's a fire risk since I can definitely see some idiot throwing a lit cigarette in the bin.

They already do staff cleaning crews at Target field for the trains, I believe they are trying to add more to Mall of america and union depot. Lake street light rail and brt stations each have a mostly permanent staff during the week. other than that they have 30 or so people that drive around the system in pairs of 2 doing clean up on a schedule of all the stops bus brt and light rail

... people that drive around the system in pairs of 2 doing clean up on a schedule of all the stops bus brt and light rail

Oh the irony.

Perhaps also roll out some PSAs showing the cleaning crews who have to clean up other people's messes on buses, trains, and stations. Like smoking, it confounds me that so many people just don't care about littering on our taxpayer funded vehicles and stations.

When it comes to littering and smoking, unfortunately I think we’re dealing with a group that doesn’t particularly care how their actions affect others.

... people that drive around the system in pairs of 2 doing clean up on a schedule of all the stops bus brt and light rail

Oh the irony.

you try bringing a bunch of cleaning equipment including a pressure washer and a big garbage can onto a bus or train that's full with only 2 people. there's a reason why they have pickups running around with a bunch of cleaning equipment in the back.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is that simply kicking off homeless or drug addicts or smokers doesn't make them disappear. Once transit security ramps up more, those people will go find somewhere else to do what they were doing on the light rail. Instead of helping these people, we kick them around and let their living conditions worsen. Though I get that this is far outside the scope of transit, in order to once and for all 'fix' our LRT system, we need to start helping these people get shelter, jobs, medical help, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support things like more police presence, two car trains, more cleaning, but that is only part of the solution. However, the people causing the racket on LRT now also need--deserve--help to improve their living situation.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

I don't think anyone here is arguing or even insinuating that adding more police and "fixing" the LRT system is magically going to solve the underlying issue that the system is currently dealing with. I would say most posters here are would agree with you that the homeless, drug addicts & smokers as you put it on the train deserve help in improving their living situation through social programs, including shelter, jobs, medical help, etc. On the whole this board is pretty progressive in their views and beliefs about most things including addressing the underlying causes of the challenges LRT is facing and would absolutely support more funding and people doing the work to help people who need it.

While those services help tomorrow, they don't always help today. Public transit, all public spaces for that matter, need to be a place where everyone feels welcome. Today that might mean more police and enforcement of rules as part of a solution while also getting people the help they need is the other part. The solution can absolutely be a both/and approach and not just a either/or one.