Amtrak: Empire Builder and Borealis (TCMC)

[HuskyGrad]

Amtrak has told legislatures that their next priority after NLX for our state will be a second Twin Cities-Fargo Daily Train which the legislature is trying to use to also get a Northstar extension to St. Cloud. The feds are planning on paying for the Amtrak study.

Would it be worthwhile to investigate rebuilding the line west of St. Cloud through Alexandria that's now the Lake Wobegon trail if additional capacity is required? Seems like that route serves more centers of population than the current routing west of St. Cloud.

[mattaudio]

Would there ever be a market for a night train to Chicago, possibly even a private operator? Current Empire Builder block time is 7:55. Imagine a 10:30 p.m. departure and 6:30 a.m. arrival in both directions. Not an efficient use of rolling stock, but maybe the type of thing a private operator could develop with refurbed equipment.

[Trademark]

Would there ever be a market for a night train to Chicago, possibly even a private operator? Current Empire Builder block time is 7:55. Imagine a 10:30 p.m. departure and 6:30 a.m. arrival in both directions. Not an efficient use of rolling stock, but maybe the type of thing a private operator could develop with refurbed equipment.

I could definitely see that as being a possibility. Brightline has expressed interest in the corridor this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they got into night trains.

[Apollo]

Would there ever be a market for a night train to Chicago, possibly even a private operator? Current Empire Builder block time is 7:55. Imagine a 10:30 p.m. departure and 6:30 a.m. arrival in both directions. Not an efficient use of rolling stock, but maybe the type of thing a private operator could develop with refurbed equipment.

I could definitely see that as being a possibility. Brightline has expressed interest in the corridor this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they got into night trains.

Where did you see this from Brightline? This is the first I've heard of Brightline expressing an interest in the MSP or Chicago market.

[Trademark]

Would there ever be a market for a night train to Chicago, possibly even a private operator? Current Empire Builder block time is 7:55. Imagine a 10:30 p.m. departure and 6:30 a.m. arrival in both directions. Not an efficient use of rolling stock, but maybe the type of thing a private operator could develop with refurbed equipment.

I could definitely see that as being a possibility. Brightline has expressed interest in the corridor this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they got into night trains.

Where did you see this from Brightline? This is the first I've heard of Brightline expressing an interest in the MSP or Chicago market.

https://twitter.com/UsesTransit/status/ ... eofxA&s=19

[Tom H.]

Back in the day, I took the Megabus back and forth between Chicago a few times, and always chose the red-eye (leave late night, arrive early morning) when available. Those time slots were usually quite full, so there is (or was) a market for overnight travel between the two cities.

[Silophant]

According to this report on the Wisconsin passenger rail program, Great River service is expected to start in September 2023, though it also mentions further down that Minnesota is still attempting to secure state funding for NLX, so it may not be fully up to date.

[Silophant]

[mattaudio]

https://www.wuwm.com/2023-07-14/why-yes ... a-lot-more
Yet another recent article expecting to start before EOY, though timetables are still TBD.

[DanPatchToget]

MnDOT has a survey about the 2nd daily train between the Twin Cities and Chicago:
https://bit.ly/408kkD9

[MNdible]

The question about what's a reasonable ticket price for a one-way or two-way trip is dumb, since I'd probably pay twice as much for a two-way trip...

[StandishGuy]

The recent All Aboard MN newsletter reports that Amtrak is threatening to leave Union Depot due to problems with crime, vagrancy and events taking over the space. Apparently, weddings are taking over the hall and leaving Amtrak passengers cramped off to the side. Also, passengers have been missing audible announcements about train arrivals and departures because of Loud music. Amtrak suggests they might go back to the old location in the Midway unless the issues are resolved. Crazy!

[DanPatchToget]

Repairs would definitely need to be made to the Midway Depot if they went through with the relocation. Hasn't it been pretty much abandoned since Amtrak left in 2014?

My hope is Ramsey County and MnDOT wake up and remember what Union Depot was supposed to be when it was renovated; a regional and intercity rail hub. Having it also be an event space is fine, but not if it means shoving passengers off to the side.

[Tcmetro]

Ramsey County needs to figure these issues out. IIRC, the renovation cost around $250 million which is a lot of money for a facility that largely serves as a parking garage and bus layover (and a wedding venue). Amtrak leaving would really cement the renovation as being a colossal waste of money.

[Silophant]

I'm reasonably optimistic that Ramsey County will get their shit together if Amtrak is seriously threatening to leave, given how hard they've been trying to make people walk through SPUD whether it makes sense or not, like with the whole push to make the Gold Line end at the bus platforms there instead of running through downtown a few years ago.

[LakeCharles]

I definitely agree that Union Depot does not feel like an Amtrak station. 95% of the hall is always used for something else and so you're shunted off to the side behind some black fabric, sitting on the floor because there aren't enough seats. Compared to any other city I've ridden in, we definitely ended up with a bad one.

It does feel like a continuation of a trend though. Just because St. Paul badly wants everyone to pay for things to be located there doesn't mean it's a good idea...

[thespeedmccool]

The problem is that there's only one train a day. Union Depot is doing other things 90% of the time because it's not really a train depot at all. It basically is an event space that a train happens to stop at, not a train station you can get married at.

Until there's enough revenue from trains and passengers, there will always be pushes to defray costs with extracurricular activities.

[Korh]

I also think the way it things are currently laid out make things tough. I remember old concept drawings for spuds revival where the platforms would be directly under the hall like it was historical, fast forward to today and the train platform is all the way at the end of the hall in its own little space and only a few buses go under it.

[Zkools20]

Could they just send the train down to target field station instead?

[Silophant]

Not effectively; the platform at TFS is only 400' long, the long-haul Amtrak trains need a 1200' platform to allow all the doors to open. They can get away with shorter platforms at less-used stations - if you go to Red Wing the conductors will make you sit in a specific coach because only a couple of them will be lined up with the platforms when the train stops - but it's not really feasible with a station as busy as MSP. Additionally, since TFS isn't on the mainline, the train would have to sloowly back into or out of the station rather than just coming in, stopping and then continuing on its way. This isn't necessarily the end of the world (the California Zephyr does it in Denver), but it'd add 10-15 minutes to an already long travel time.