Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
mulad
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mulad » April 7th, 2014, 10:38 pm

I think that's called BRT.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » April 7th, 2014, 11:35 pm

I've been and will continue to push the question of whether the route in conjunction with Penn aBRT and Broadway streetcar is the right use of funding at the Penn Avenue Community Works PIC meetings. I go back and forth on this current set of alignments, but what needs to be figured out is how the current proposals meet up.

Theo Wirth and the stations at GVR and Plymouth are quite accessible for a lot of North side residents. My current thinking is that the only real advantage to a Penn alignment would be economic development. Perhaps the Broadway streetcar can catalyze business growth while Bottineau and aBRT get people places fast.
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Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 8th, 2014, 10:26 am

Is it possible for people to be too realistic?
Yes! It's called complacency.
Theo Wirth and the stations at GVR and Plymouth are quite accessible for a lot of North side residents.
Is it still the plan to build the Golden Valley Road OR Plymouth station, but not both?
Now if we wanted to see a true urban rail system, the city of Minneapolis would have to be the leader in such an initiative.
I suppose you're right. Let's scrap the overpriced streetcar plan stat. Then we can get to work on our first grade-separated rail line. Let's start with the West Lake Station to Lake & Hennepin, under Hennepin through DT, across the river, hang a right on University to end at the Stadium Village Green Line Stop.
The region could strategize differently. A tactic that's been used by other cities is to use local money with no federal match to build the part the feds won't pay for; then, once that part is built, apply for the rest of the line to be federally funded, using the part that was already built entirely with local funds as the local match. With strong local funding (CTIB), a system approach and good local leadership this can remove a lot of the so called bottlenecks. We have the right setup to do this but lack the local leadership.
THIS. I love how it doesn't claim defeat-by-dysfunctional-politics right at the outset.
I seriously wonder if building these last two lines as planned is really better than not building them at all.
I'm wavering about this. The Central Corridor will be a rock star, but the next two lines seem like such cop-outs. We want rail transit, but we're not willing to make the hard trade-offs to make it good. It doesn't even seem like money is the biggest limiting factor. No public officials (Matt Look excepted) are saying we don't have the money for the Kenilworth tunnels. The biggest thing holding our transit system back is we're too scared to upset neighbors or take lanes from cars. Putting rail in the streets without an exclusive right-of-way demonstrates how we don't have enough courage to optimize the transit funding we do have.

So maybe we just need to do whatever it takes to put these rail lines down, and the city will grow around them for the next century. Or, maybe we're making a Dallas-style blunder by following the path of least resistance.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010 ... s-longest/

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 8th, 2014, 10:42 am

Is it possible for people to be too realistic?
There's an old organizing adage that says you acknowledge the world as it is while working to change it and you fight the fights you can win.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » April 8th, 2014, 10:52 am

I'm wavering about this. The Central Corridor will be a rock star, but the next two lines seem like such cop-outs. We want rail transit, but we're not willing to make the hard trade-offs to make it good. It doesn't even seem like money is the biggest limiting factor. No public officials (Matt Look excepted) are saying we don't have the money for the Kenilworth tunnels. The biggest thing holding our transit system back is we're too scared to upset neighbors or take lanes from cars. Putting rail in the streets without an exclusive right-of-way demonstrates how we don't have enough courage to optimize the transit funding we do have.
I think of how revolutionary the Hiawatha Line was to public perceptions of transit once it started running, and it wasn't even a good example of what *can* be done. It's like we're trying to build a man and we started by building a femur; we're now getting around to the backbone. I think Central is likely to really have a big effect on the region's transit picture. Given how long Southwest and Bottineau have been delayed already, I wonder if it might not be good to let Central run in revenue service for a year before either of these are settled. Bottineau at least is likely to still be in decision-making phases at the point that we get a read of just how successful Central really is. If it ends up being a runaway success in its first year it might give more space for maneuvering.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » April 8th, 2014, 11:10 am

I'm wavering about this. The Central Corridor will be a rock star, but the next two lines seem like such cop-outs. We want rail transit, but we're not willing to make the hard trade-offs to make it good. It doesn't even seem like money is the biggest limiting factor. No public officials (Matt Look excepted) are saying we don't have the money for the Kenilworth tunnels. The biggest thing holding our transit system back is we're too scared to upset neighbors or take lanes from cars. Putting rail in the streets without an exclusive right-of-way demonstrates how we don't have enough courage to optimize the transit funding we do have.
I think of how revolutionary the Hiawatha Line was to public perceptions of transit once it started running, and it wasn't even a good example of what *can* be done. It's like we're trying to build a man and we started by building a femur; we're now getting around to the backbone. I think Central is likely to really have a big effect on the region's transit picture. Given how long Southwest and Bottineau have been delayed already, I wonder if it might not be good to let Central run in revenue service for a year before either of these are settled. Bottineau at least is likely to still be in decision-making phases at the point that we get a read of just how successful Central really is. If it ends up being a runaway success in its first year it might give more space for maneuvering.
This makes a good point. By the time bottineau is shovel ready we will already have central and Hiawatha on line and probably southwest. We will directly be able to compare the two philosophies of let in this city. However, I wouldn't go bragging like centrals success is a slam dunk.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 8th, 2014, 11:19 am

I think of how revolutionary the Hiawatha Line was to public perceptions of transit once it started running, and it wasn't even a good example of what *can* be done. It's like we're trying to build a man and we started by building a femur; we're now getting around to the backbone. I think Central is likely to really have a big effect on the region's transit picture. Given how long Southwest and Bottineau have been delayed already, I wonder if it might not be good to let Central run in revenue service for a year before either of these are settled. Bottineau at least is likely to still be in decision-making phases at the point that we get a read of just how successful Central really is. If it ends up being a runaway success in its first year it might give more space for maneuvering.
This makes a good point. By the time bottineau is shovel ready we will already have central and Hiawatha on line and probably southwest. We will directly be able to compare the two philosophies of let in this city. However, I wouldn't go bragging like centrals success is a slam dunk.
This line of thought seems to bolster MNdible's point. It seems like a lot of people don't comprehend just how long the lead time is for these projects. We're not going to make Bottineau turn on a dime because Central doubles it's ridership projections. The LPA is set and short of completely starting over, we're not going to get more than tweaks at this point.

And that's not a bad thing. A lot of people in North are excited about Bottineau too. And they're excited about the enhanced bus network they want to serve these two LRT lines.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 8th, 2014, 11:27 am

The lead time would be significantly less if we built these ourselves. And if we built little chunks at a time rather than massive lines all at once. When we have this massive approach rather than an incremental approach, we're stuck ironing out every (significant) route option, engineering challenge, etc before the project can start. The end result takes longer, and costs much more, than it really needs to.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 8th, 2014, 11:47 am

The lead time would be significantly less if we built these ourselves. And if we built little chunks at a time rather than massive lines all at once. When we have this massive approach rather than an incremental approach, we're stuck ironing out every (significant) route option, engineering challenge, etc before the project can start. The end result takes longer, and costs much more, than it really needs to.
I get what you're saying and talindsay's suggested approach makes some sense. However, keep in mind that the counties are not going to fund LRT that only serves Minneapolis or St. Paul. I know you say, "build it locally," but I have a hard time believing that Minneapolis can come up with the dough for a subway when it can't even find funding for a high-priority starter streetcar line, even given special action by the legislature.

That's simply the reality of where we're at. Should we change it? Yes! But that takes time and, importantly, tons and tons of people. Margaret Mead was very, very wrong.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Silophant » April 8th, 2014, 12:06 pm

However, I wouldn't go bragging like centrals success is a slam dunk.
Why not? You really think it won't be?
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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » April 8th, 2014, 12:22 pm

However, I wouldn't go bragging like centrals success is a slam dunk.
Why not? You really think it won't be?
I really don't know, that's the whole point. Central is just so different from Hiawatha that we can never be sure the same overwhelming success will be repeated. The circumstances and modeling are different the second time around. Personally, I'm hoping it will outperform as I'm looking forward to taking it to wild games.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 8th, 2014, 12:36 pm

However, I wouldn't go bragging like centrals success is a slam dunk.
Why not? You really think it won't be?
I really don't know, that's the whole point. Central is just so different from Hiawatha that we can never be sure the same overwhelming success will be repeated. The circumstances and modeling are different the second time around. Personally, I'm hoping it will outperform as I'm looking forward to taking it to wild games.
How are we defining "success?" From a purely ridership viewpoint (which is far too narrow a metric), Central will be a success if it meets the goals. Hiawatha exceeded its goals partially because the modeling could not factor in rail bias. Central's modeling did factor that in so I would not at all be surprised if it doesn't crash through projections like Hiawatha did.

But we need to look at success as much more than ridership. Is it leading to investment in the community? Are communities along the line seeing equity benefits? Are people better able to get where they need to go? Are people getting healthier? These are all things we should be tracking.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 8th, 2014, 12:51 pm

Is it moving existing transit users more effectively? I'd like that to be the primary metric for expensive capital investment. Put it where buses no longer suffice in terms of capacity or level of service.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby ECtransplant » April 8th, 2014, 12:59 pm

So through cornfields and in tunnels through parkland?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 8th, 2014, 1:27 pm

Is it moving existing transit users more effectively? I'd like that to be the primary metric for expensive capital investment. Put it where buses no longer suffice in terms of capacity or level of service.
Exactly. Which overloaded bus routes are we upgrading to rail with the SW and Bottineau projects?

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby lordmoke » April 8th, 2014, 1:29 pm

This isn't directed at any particular person, but you guys should really stop with the "cornfields" line. Brooklyn Park is the sixth most populous city in the state, and one of the last stops on this is going to serve a community college with well over 10,000 students. The last proposed stop on this route, yes, is currently empty space, but reducing the entirety of the suburban portion of this route to "cornfields" is pretty bad form.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 8th, 2014, 1:32 pm

I wasn't the last one to use it, but I've used that line before. Because three of the proposed Bottineau stations ARE literally adjacent to corn fields today.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » April 8th, 2014, 1:33 pm

Is it moving existing transit users more effectively? I'd like that to be the primary metric for expensive capital investment. Put it where buses no longer suffice in terms of capacity or level of service.
Exactly. Which overloaded bus routes are we upgrading to rail with the SW and Bottineau projects?
Our transit planning should not be limited to the existing uses of our current woefully inadequate transit system. To do so would be to simply reinforce the disparities that already exists.

Equity means that we take a step back and consider what works for everyone and what gets people where they need to go, whether those places are currently served by transit or not.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mattaudio » April 8th, 2014, 1:46 pm

Pretty sure building rail lines that don't actually address inequality (no matter how much the apologists claim, it still isn't true) actually makes things worse... That's CTIB money we can't use to actually help people who use existing bus routes such as the overcrowded routes between Downtown and the North Side. It's interesting that the people who claim projects will resolve disparities are actually projecting a reality that will reinforce and exacerbate those disparities. It's sad to see.

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Re: Bottineau Corridor (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 8th, 2014, 1:47 pm

Is it moving existing transit users more effectively? I'd like that to be the primary metric for expensive capital investment. Put it where buses no longer suffice in terms of capacity or level of service.
Exactly. Which overloaded bus routes are we upgrading to rail with the SW and Bottineau projects?
Our transit planning should not be limited to the existing uses of our current woefully inadequate transit system. To do so would be to simply reinforce the disparities that already exists.

Equity means that we take a step back and consider what works for everyone and what gets people where they need to go, whether those places are currently served by transit or not.
Of course I'm not saying expanded transit should be limited to serving existing users. Only that high capacity transit like rail lines should generally upgrade service that's currently overloaded. Central LRT replacing the 50 is a perfect example.


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