Target Field Station (the Hotel) & Target Field Station (the Station)

[FISHMANPET]

It's not really much of a transfer penalty when you've got a streetcar coming every 2-3 minutes, and is the same express route coming every 5 minutes?

[mattaudio]

I'm just reluctant to mess with express routes, other than maybe switching some to east-west corridors through downtown to open up more capacity on north-south streets like Marq-2. Having taken express buses for many years it seems like there's a different type of ridership and a transfer penalty might have a larger impact with express routes. Plus the thought of waiting for a bus at a depot honestly seems worse than waiting in the elements in an orderly line... echoes of diesel engines, dark and dingy concrete spaces, etc.... I'd much rather be outside while waiting.

[FISHMANPET]

You may be right about the perceived transfer penalty of commuters. Though I think a lot can be done with a bus depot to make it a better experience.

Hell, if it was done right you could have streetcars dump into the Interchange and have all express buses leave from there, that would be a pretty good experience for the commuters, if it can all be structured such that it's the same amount of time or even sames time door to door.

[mattaudio]

Someday the Interchange should be busy enough with people transferring between four LRT branches and multiple commuter/regional/HSR trains... I think it's fine that we consider it to be a non-bus facility. The only movement that's hindered by being on the west side of DT is north side buses to SW LRT. All the more reason to push and get Bottineau LRT built so north side residents have a simple cross platform transfer to SW LRT and jobs in the corridor.

[MumfordMoses]

The images from the article are nice to see! Helps lay everything out for the brain to wrap around the use of space.







I find the 'loft walk' to be very interesting... I wonder how Shapco feels knowing that every developer would love a slice of their property? Couldn't it be a great profit for them to relocate? Say into the Ford building or another North Loop warehouse?

I was reading the Planetizen comments, some of them critical. I had to jump in and counter these terd brains, one person being an architect from New York, who dismissed the whole thing. I think I made my points with the New Yorker, who thinks this hub's sole purpose is gameday for the Twins - never mind the TWolves, Lynx, concert goers, Warehouse District and North Loop bar hoppers, the rising number of cyclists using the expanded Cedar Lake Trail, or the ripe vacant lots begging for development in the area. Also, someone, presumably from Mpls, finds the hub worthless due to the non-bus factor. He forgot to calculate Central Corridor's upside and the inevitability of the Southwest Corridor.

Thanks for posting this, I was about to do the same, thought the article just came out yesterday. As usual, I'm a bit slow

[woofner]

Also, someone, presumably from Mpls, finds the hub worthless due to the non-bus factor. He forgot to calculate Central Corridor's upside and the inevitability of the Southwest Corridor.

Being called a "terd brain" invokes a strange jumble of emotions. On the one hand, it's always a bummer when someone thinks so little of you that he implies that the organ you use to think is made of fecal matter. On the other hand, you can't help but feel less ridiculous than someone who can't even spell his own insults. Anyway, I've always thought of myself more as a turd blossom.

But the confusingly-worded assertion about the impact of Central and Southwest brings up an interesting question - if these two additional LRT lines will improve the outcome of the Interchange, um, what outcome is the Interchange supposed to bring about exactly? According to terd-slinging MumfordMoses, it's not improving "gameday for the Twins", and I think he's mostly right there even though the biggest transit component of the project is the 2nd platform, which by all accounts is only needed for Twins games.

I always assumed from the name that the goal of the project was to facilitate better transfers between transit services and modes. It is from this assumption that my judgement of the project stems - the 2nd platform will actually make transfers more difficult, since there's nothing easier than stepping off a train and catching another on the same platform. Anyway geographically the Interchange is really only important for one intraLRT transfer - that from sb Bottineau to wb Southwest, all the other transfers are redundant. The 2nd platform is also further from the vertical circulation for the commuter rail services (and strangely behind the grove of trees, which at some point will obscure sight lines), making those transfers more difficult. And the final strike, in my mind, is the fact that it makes no provision for the 15,500 downtown riders of the 5,9,14,19 and 22, all of which pass nearby but just too far away (Hiawatha sees 11k downtown boardings). Another consideration is the 350 riders who board at the 5th St Garage, which is already awkwardly placed for transfers to LRT, a situation which the Interchange design either ignores or exacerbates depending on how exactly the 2nd platform is operated. This garage's sort-of-online positioning means it has great potential for buses to the west metro - a potential for which it was built but never has met and that the Interchange does nothing to take advantage of.

But there are other possible goals - none of which have anything to do with Target Center, the Warehouse District bars, or the Cedar Lake Trail, all tough or impossible to access from the Interchange. If open space is the goal, the plan achieves it beautifully, but I'm not sure this is the best location, and I'm a little curious about how parks development got on Hennepin County's agenda. If development is the goal, this plan seems to achieve it, but not as much as could be achieved and certainly not as cheaply as could be achieved. The only transportation goal I can think of that makes sense and the Interchange actually achieves is realigning the intersection of 6th Ave N & 5th St N to be less brutally heinous.

Very long story short - I don't dislike the Interchange project, and in fact I'm sure I'd be using it as a park if it existed today. I just question whether it is the best use of $80m in this time of extremely limited government funding. For the same amount, they could have built rapid bus on Hennepin, Broadway and Chicago, which would benefit the 25,000 current daily riders and increased their ranks by 10,000. The Interchange might make riding a bit more pleasant for maybe 10,000 people less than 100 days out of the year, and otherwise make things around the stadium a bit prettier. Which is the better use of $80m?

[mattaudio]

While I don't think it's a big deal that this doesn't cater to buses (since hopefully people from the west and north will mainly be on SWLRT and Bottineau in less than a decade) I do think you have some valid criticisms. It seems like a lot of expense, and I initially thought the primary purpose of this project was to build a full-fledged heavy rail station for the future, with more platforms and services. The one benefit here is that the expanded station may be future-proofed for when four segments interline through downtown. But I wonder if the four downtown stations will need similar expansion for more people down the road.

It seems strange that they will have separate platforms so close together (the existing ones along Target Field, and these new ones) but I hope they are only used during Twins games so people can spread out to different platforms for different destinations after the game. The rest of the time, it would be good if this new center platform was used so people can do cross platform transfers to any line.

[mattaudio]

Also it seems like a lot of the money for this project is going to build underground parking, which is intended for long-term use by people departing by train.
A) If we are doing this, I really hope it means we don't waste money on "extra" suburban stations down the line when we have new regional/intercity service such as the proposed Amtrak frequencies to Chicago.
B) If there's a market for people parking their cars downtown for days on end while they take trips by train, I don't understand why it has to be a part of the facility. Couldn't private parking operators within a block or two provide this service? If not, I at least hope this parking becomes a profit center for the station so it can support other amenities.

[MumfordMoses]

Also, someone, presumably from Mpls, finds the hub worthless due to the non-bus factor. He forgot to calculate Central Corridor's upside and the inevitability of the Southwest Corridor.

Being called a "terd brain" invokes a strange jumble of emotions. On the one hand, it's always a bummer when someone thinks so little of you that he implies that the organ you use to think is made of fecal matter. On the other hand, you can't help but feel less ridiculous than someone who can't even spell his own insults. Anyway, I've always thought of myself more as a turd blossom.

But the confusingly-worded assertion about the impact of Central and Southwest brings up an interesting question - if these two additional LRT lines will improve the outcome of the Interchange, um, what outcome is the Interchange supposed to bring about exactly? According to terd-slinging MumfordMoses, it's not improving "gameday for the Twins", and I think he's mostly right there even though the biggest transit component of the project is the 2nd platform, which by all accounts is only needed for Twins games.

I always assumed from the name that the goal of the project was to facilitate better transfers between transit services and modes. It is from this assumption that my judgement of the project stems - the 2nd platform will actually make transfers more difficult, since there's nothing easier than stepping off a train and catching another on the same platform. Anyway geographically the Interchange is really only important for one intraLRT transfer - that from sb Bottineau to wb Southwest, all the other transfers are redundant. The 2nd platform is also further from the vertical circulation for the commuter rail services (and strangely behind the grove of trees, which at some point will obscure sight lines), making those transfers more difficult. And the final strike, in my mind, is the fact that it makes no provision for the 15,500 downtown riders of the 5,9,14,19 and 22, all of which pass nearby but just too far away (Hiawatha sees 11k downtown boardings). Another consideration is the 350 riders who board at the 5th St Garage, which is already awkwardly placed for transfers to LRT, a situation which the Interchange design either ignores or exacerbates depending on how exactly the 2nd platform is operated. This garage's sort-of-online positioning means it has great potential for buses to the west metro - a potential for which it was built but never has met and that the Interchange does nothing to take advantage of.

But there are other possible goals - none of which have anything to do with Target Center, the Warehouse District bars, or the Cedar Lake Trail, all tough or impossible to access from the Interchange. If open space is the goal, the plan achieves it beautifully, but I'm not sure this is the best location, and I'm a little curious about how parks development got on Hennepin County's agenda. If development is the goal, this plan seems to achieve it, but not as much as could be achieved and certainly not as cheaply as could be achieved. The only transportation goal I can think of that makes sense and the Interchange actually achieves is realigning the intersection of 6th Ave N & 5th St N to be less brutally heinous.

Very long story short - I don't dislike the Interchange project, and in fact I'm sure I'd be using it as a park if it existed today. I just question whether it is the best use of $80m in this time of extremely limited government funding. For the same amount, they could have built rapid bus on Hennepin, Broadway and Chicago, which would benefit the 25,000 current daily riders and increased their ranks by 10,000. The Interchange might make riding a bit more pleasant for maybe 10,000 people less than 100 days out of the year, and otherwise make things around the stadium a bit prettier. Which is the better use of $80m?

Thanks for your feedback, I think you're missing the point on my ruthless insult (sarcasm here) due to the thread development on this particular page. Unlike your post, there were plenty of vacuous posts, at least you provide intelligent counterarguments. But, you're being beyond a wise ass in your defense of these "turd blossoms" & actually proceed down a path of insulting me - trust me - I'm not taking it too hard : ). I consciously choose to misspell "turd" with "terd", it's an inside joke & MumfordMoses thing, a way of alleviating vulgarity by giving some credit to those who choose criticism without feedback, that these particular people are quite possibly "nerds" in a good way who failed to make a decent point for a change. Also, your post could use some commas and apostrophes here and there - so cut the line of reasoning that spelling is somehow crucial to one's intelligence. I get your points, grammar issues or not & you certainly reacted to my 'confusingly-worded assertion" with plenty to say, which I appreciate.

As to some of your points, I think you overstate the difficulty of transfers to other transit lines, in this case the only one I can think of is the Northstar Commuter line, if I'm not mistaken . But to somehow get the Central Corridor-Hiawatha lines on the same platform as the under-used Northstar would be costly and "redundant". Which brings me to my next point: walk! To say people can't get to the Warehouse District or Target Center from this point is head-scratching, God forbid one must walk or venture the prospect of taking a stairwell or elevator from one level to the next . Exercise, walk, exercise, walk, doing such will not be hard with the Interchange. It took me a mere 5 minutes to walk from the Holiday, near this project, to Pizza Luce the other day - passing by the Interchange was an abbreviated experience. Also, I might want to point out various interchanges I've experienced in my lifetime, CTA, NYC, DC, Singapore, Hong Kong, San Fran, and so on, where navigating transfer points = a pain in the ass coupled with underground, claustrophobic madness & plenty of walking - beyond anything I can imagine with the Interchange. Mpls, is a small city, I just don't find it difficult to walk in most cases.

Also, you lose credibility with me, when you propose rapid bus on Chicago or Hennepin - some merit with Broadway. I'm not sure if you're speaking about all of Hennepin, or just some of it in your above idea. East Hennepin is not very dense and it's also quite industrial in stretches. As for the denser part of Hennepin, imo it is quite narrow from Lowry Hill East to Uptown - the trees barely have enough room to grow, traffic can be a mess, parking is a pain in the behind, the sidewalks aren't exactly spacious - countless residences come right up to the sidewalk. I so often wonder why cyclists even choose Hennepin as a primary transit route - it can be dangerous, esp after I witnessed a horrible accident in front of Jefferson Elementary between a cyclist and driver. The same could be said for Chicago, minus the bike accident. As it stands now, the 6 & 17 are quite efficient, as well as the 5. I've never, ever wondered why these buses don't run faster.

Conversely, you bring up some good points and certainly underscore concerns over the cost of the Interchange in an era of broke-ass government. But I certainly believe some of our inefficient government stems from too much investment in auto infrastructure & sprawled development. I'm sure we agree here.

What I like about the Interchange is quite simple, a shift from private to public transport & a potentially resilient public space. I also think numerous long-term development could, stress "could", manifest from this project. It's easier to slight projects like Interchange than to imagine the distant benefits. Development in Mpls takes time, you know this reality.

[woofner]

As to some of your points, I think you overstate the difficulty of transfers to other transit lines, in this case the only one I can think of is the Northstar Commuter line, if I'm not mistaken .

That's because that's the only one that exists. So why are spending $80m here?

Which brings me to my next point: walk! To say people can't get to the Warehouse District or Target Center from this point is head-scratching, God forbid one must walk or venture the prospect of taking a stairwell or elevator from one level to the next .

Then why not ask Twins fans who are taking one of the LRT lines to board at Warehouse District station instead of building a 2nd platform at the Interchange? BTW in my last post I was referring to the fact that people who are going to Target Center or the Warehouse District are going to use the Warehouse District station instead of the Interchange.

Also, you lose credibility with me, when you propose rapid bus on Chicago or Hennepin

Then don't take my word for it, take the word of people who were paid thousands of dollars to research it.

since hopefully people from the west and north will mainly be on SWLRT and Bottineau in less than a decade

I don't think those LRT lines will have much impact on people who are taking Northside buses downtown. The only route that will be alleviated is the Olson segment of the 19, and it seems that most 19 boardings are on Penn anyway.

Again, if I'm still around in a couple years I'll enjoy sitting at the Interchange plaza during lunch and walking through it regularly on my commute, but I question whether it was the best use of that money.

[MumfordMoses]

As to some of your points, I think you overstate the difficulty of transfers to other transit lines, in this case the only one I can think of is the Northstar Commuter line, if I'm not mistaken .

That's because that's the only one that exists. So why are spending $80m here?

Which brings me to my next point: walk! To say people can't get to the Warehouse District or Target Center from this point is head-scratching, God forbid one must walk or venture the prospect of taking a stairwell or elevator from one level to the next .

Then why not ask Twins fans who are taking one of the LRT lines to board at Warehouse District station instead of building a 2nd platform at the Interchange? BTW in my last post I was referring to the fact that people who are going to Target Center or the Warehouse District are going to use the Warehouse District station instead of the Interchange.

CAPS ARE INTENTIONAL, NOT AS CLEVER AS YOU WITH THE EXTRACTED QUOTES. YOU'RE FAILING TO SEE THE LONG TERM PICTURE, WHICH YOU ALLUDE TO AT THE END OF YOUR POST, SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT YOU WON'T BE AROUND IN A COUPLE OF YEARS. HOPEFULLY THAT'S NOT TRUE. BUT ALSO, WHEN DO MASS TRANSIT PROJECTS IN THIS DAY IN AGE YIELD IMMEDIATE RESULTS? OUR SOCIETY IS INCREDIBLY EPHEMERAL, WHICH IS DOING US MORE HARM THAN GOOD. THE THINKING WITH INTERCHANGE, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, IS THAT SOMEDAY THE CITY HOPES 5 LINES WILL CONVERGE AT THIS POINT: CENTRAL, HIAWATHA, NORTHSTAR, SOUTHWEST, AND THE ONE I CAN'T SPELL, BOTTINEAU OR WHATVER. THERE WILL ALREADY BE 3 LINES HERE WITHIN 3 YEARS. MOREOVER, THE PROVISIONS YOU HIGHLIGHT AGAINST BUS ACCESS CAN ALWAYS BE CHANGED. FURTHERMORE, I'M DEVOURING A MPLS MAP AS WE SPEAK AND CAN'T THINK OF WHERE ELSE TO PUT THE INTERCHANGE UNLESS YOU ARE PROPOSING THE WAREHOUSE STATION. WHAT'S YOUR ALTERNATIVE HERE? I ALSO LIKE THE IDEA, CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE I READ IT, THAT THE TRASH PALACE WILL PASS OFF EXCESS ENERGY TO THE INTERCHANGE.

Also, you lose credibility with me, when you propose rapid bus on Chicago or Hennepin

Then don't take my word for it, take the word of people who were paid thousands of dollars to research it.

SO NOW YOU HAVE MORE CREDIBILITY BY LINKING A METRO TRANSIT STUDY? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME AGENCY THAT HELPED PUSH FOR THE INTERCHANGE. MOREOVER, SHAME ON METRO TRANSIT FOR THINKING CHICAGO OR HENNEPIN CAN BE UPGRADED TO RAPID TRANSIT WITHOUT SERIOUS CONSTRUCTION OR AN AGENDA OF DRAMATICALLY REDUCING AUTO USE OF THESE STREETS. THE CONSTRUCTION WOULD BE EXPENSIVE. IT ONLY TAKES A SIMPLE STROLL DOWN EITHER STREET TO REALIZE NEITHER IS REALLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT SERIOUS BULLDOZING WHICH WON'T BE GOOD FOR BUSINESSES - CENTRAL CORRIDOR'S CONSTRUCTION HAS BEEN DETRIMENTAL FOR VARIOUS COMMUNITIES, AND UNIVERSITY AVENUE, PRE-CONSTRUCTION, IS A CONSIDERABLY WIDER ROAD THAN EITHER HENNEPIN OR CHICAGO. BUT I'LL GO HARDCORE HERE: LET'S DO RAPID TRANSIT & PENALIZE CAR OWNERS FOR USING EITHER STREET - WE CAN START PHASING OUT CARS, INCLUDING MINE, ALL TWO OF THEM. I REALLY DON'T LIKE THE DAMN THINGS ANYWAYS.

I'M WITH YOU ON THE COSTS, BUT THINGS ARE JUST EXPENSIVE THESE DAYS, ESPECIALLY PUBLIC TRANSIT. WE'RE PAYING THE PRICE FOR DECADES OF CAR INFRASTRUCTURE & SPRAWL. PARKING SPACES ARE NOT EXACTLY ORGANIC CREATIONS, THEY'RE UGLY AND ALMOST STRICTLY UTILITARIAN. I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY PARKING LOTS, AT MOST TIMES VACANT, THROUGHOUT THIS METRO EXIST. I DON'T EVEN WANT TO KNOW THE CUMULATIVE ACREAGE THESE THINGS HOG UP. LET'S NOT ALSO KID OURSELVES HERE, HIGHWAYS ARE HARDLY USED HALF THE DAY AS WELL. COMBINED, THESE REALITIES HAVE NOT ONLY BEEN EXPENSIVE IN THE LONG RUN, THEY'VE STRECHED DEVELOPMENT TOO FAR - NOT GOOD FOR MOTHER EARTH. THIS METRO IS ABSURDLY SPRAWLED, EAST TO WEST, NORTH TO SOUTH. HONESTLY, I COULD RAMBLE, AD INFINITUM, ON THE OUTRAGEOUS COSTS AND SPACE WASTE RELATED TO CAR INFRASTRUCTURE.

I'M SIMPLY GLAD I'VE CHOSEN TO LIVE IN LOWRY HILL EAST. I WALK OR BICYCLE MUCH OF THE TIME. WHEN I WORKED DOWNTOWN I TOOK EITHER THE 6 OR 17 FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS. THOSE TWO CARS I SPEAK OF, COMBINED, REGISTER LESS THAN 12 THOUSAND MILES A YEAR. MY WIFE, UNFORTUNATELY, COMMUTES TO BLAINE FOR WORK. THE OTHER CAR IS USED PRIMARILY AS A HANDICAP VEHICLE FOR MY FATHER, WHO TECHNICALLY OWNS IT.

AGAIN, APOLOGIZE ABOUT THE CAP LOCKS. I'LL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO INTERNAL QUOTES. I REALLY JUST STARTED POSTING ON HERE. AND IF YOU'RE THE "TERD BRAIN" REFERRED TO IN MY PLANETIZEN POSTS, I APOLOGIZE. I JUST LIKE MORE SUBSTANCE WHEN PEOPLE ENGAGE IN INTERNET DEBATE, WHICH IS TOO OFTEN BLEMISHED WITH FLAMES AND FACT TERDS (<-- HERE I GO AGAIN). YOU DON'T SEEM TO HAVE THAT PROBLEM ON HERE, ALBEIT THE METRO TRANSIT LINK DOESN'T HELP YOUR ABOVE POINT.

THINK OF THE INTERCHANGE IN A LONGITUDINAL SENSE, PLEASE. YOU'LL LIKELY FEEL BETTER IF SUCH IS THE CASE. ROBERT MOSES PLANNING, PART OF MY ALIAS HERE, IS HARD TO DO IN 2012.

[twincitizen]

As it stands now, the 6 & 17 are quite efficient, as well as the 5. I've never, ever wondered why these buses don't run faster.

You've made some good points, but this statement is puzzling. Are you even remotely serious or am I that bad at reading sarcasm on the internet? 20+ minutes between Lake Street and roughly Block E downtown is completely unacceptable, as is the stop spacing every single block.

I think you misunderstand Metro Transit's "rapid" bus plan (quotation marks are mine). It's obviously not truly rapid transit, it is simply 20-30% faster than the local bus service we begrudgingly put up with now. I'm not sure what "construction" you're referring to. No one is talking about shrinking sidewalks or removing buildings. If anything is taken away by rapid bus, it will be a few parking spaces to make room for "bus bulb" curb extensions and nicer shelters/amenities at the stops. The other improvements include off-board fare collection, far-side bus stops (currently most are near-side) and signal-priority at traffic lights. You should actually read the study so you have a more clear picture of what Metro Transit means by "rapid". Purists will say it is a gross misuse of the word. It is simply "better" local bus service that doesn't stop every damn block.

Redisciple's point about The Interchange not accommodating existing bus routes is valid. The 7th/Olson stops are very heavily used and currently both are located on the north side of Olson Hwy (aka 6th Av N). Not geographically far from the Interchange station, but crossing either 7th or Olson (both for SB bus trips) is a dangerous prospect. While I agree that The Interchange should have been planned with bus connections in mind (to my knowledge it wasn't...at all), I would not agree with taking the buses off route to make that connection. At best, the stops could be moved to the south side of the intersection for better connections to both The Interchange and the future Royalston Station, but that's a few years away still.

[ECtransplant]

As it stands now, the 6 & 17 are quite efficient, as well as the 5. I've never, ever wondered why these buses don't run faster.

You've made some good points, but this statement is puzzling. Are you even remotely serious or am I that bad at reading sarcasm on the internet? 20+ minutes between Lake Street and roughly Block E downtown is completely unacceptable, as is the stop spacing every single block.

I think you misunderstand Metro Transit's "rapid" bus plan (quotation marks are mine). It's obviously not truly rapid transit, it is simply 20-30% faster than the local bus service we begrudgingly put up with now. I'm not sure what "construction" you're referring to. No one is talking about shrinking sidewalks or removing buildings. If anything is taken away by rapid bus, it will be a few parking spaces to make room for "bus bulb" curb extensions and nicer shelters/amenities at the stops. The other improvements include off-board fare collection, far-side bus stops (currently most are near-side) and signal-priority at traffic lights. You should actually read the study so you have a more clear picture of what Metro Transit means by "rapid". Purists will say it is a gross misuse of the word. It is simply "better" local bus service that doesn't stop every damn block.

Seriously, the chance of being lucky and catching the limited stop 12 is the only thing that makes that segment close to tolerable. It's pathetic how poorly uptown and downtown are connected by transit.

Also, it's worse than every block spacing. You don't even have to cross the street to go from the 28th St station to the Transit Center!

[twincitizen]

You're damn right about the stops on Hennepin at 28th. They need to go away. I honestly think that we like-minded bus riders need to form some kind of "riders union", even though I hate the sound of that, and demand better service.

Or we could just agree to bombard Metro Transit with complaints. It could work if enough people do it. I'm semi-serious here (and I have insider knowledge that it does actually work). They will never make the changes unless we demand them.

[MumfordMoses]

As it stands now, the 6 & 17 are quite efficient, as well as the 5. I've never, ever wondered why these buses don't run faster.

You've made some good points, but this statement is puzzling. Are you even remotely serious or am I that bad at reading sarcasm on the internet? 20+ minutes between Lake Street and roughly Block E downtown is completely unacceptable, as is the stop spacing every single block.

I think you misunderstand Metro Transit's "rapid" bus plan (quotation marks are mine). It's obviously not truly rapid transit, it is simply 20-30% faster than the local bus service we begrudgingly put up with now. I'm not sure what "construction" you're referring to. No one is talking about shrinking sidewalks or removing buildings. If anything is taken away by rapid bus, it will be a few parking spaces to make room for "bus bulb" curb extensions and nicer shelters/amenities at the stops. The other improvements include off-board fare collection, far-side bus stops (currently most are near-side) and signal-priority at traffic lights. You should actually read the study so you have a more clear picture of what Metro Transit means by "rapid". Purists will say it is a gross misuse of the word. It is simply "better" local bus service that doesn't stop every damn block.

Redisciple's point about The Interchange not accommodating existing bus routes is valid. The 7th/Olson stops are very heavily used and currently both are located on the north side of Olson Hwy (aka 6th Av N). Not geographically far from the Interchange station, but crossing either 7th or Olson (both for SB bus trips) is a dangerous prospect. While I agree that The Interchange should have been planned with bus connections in mind (to my knowledge it wasn't...at all), I would not agree with taking the buses off route to make that connection. At best, the stops could be moved to the south side of the intersection for better connections to both The Interchange and the future Royalston Station, but that's a few years away still.

Ok I've at least read part of the Executive Summary and scanned the long pdf. But I need to raise one question foremost: did Interchange kill Rapid Bus plans? My understanding of the Interchange falls in the realm, pardon the reference: "Field of Dreams" - build it and they will come, that is more LRT lines which will especially serve the Northwest & Western suburbs, all funneling into a much needed transit hub near downtown. I think the concept and reality of the Interchange is praiseworthy and good for the long term, perhaps a big hit. I also noted that bus service to Interchange can never be ruled out - I mean the thing isn't even done yet & just because no provisions have been made or considered doesn't mean "never". Let's be patient here.

As for Rapid Bus, I'm glancing this over right now, a lot of pdf's here. I like the signal priority and what you note, eliminating the block gaps, but I need more time with this sucker. So far I've not downloaded a pdf noting actual testing over a long period of time, it's probably there. I'm certainly not sold on it yet, esp the bus redesign & station enhancements. The proposed Hennepin Stations also highlight 24th and 25th stations, only a block apart, not so brilliant! It literally takes 10 minutes, at most, to walk from 24th to Uptown Station. So hopefully Metro Transit ran some tests with the current stations that prioritize mock Rapid Bus stops with existing stations, along with signal priority, I better find some results : ). Also, I do immediately think of two other factors that cause transport inefficiency that signal priority and further apart stations only partly address: the excess, perhaps growing number of cars I've noticed along Hennepin, Chicago as well. You can't exactly eliminate this reality with Rapid Bus, more cars = less space, the road is shared unfortunately, such is reality with buses . Also, when speaking of Rapid Bus along the 6, the Lyndale, Hennepin and 94 merger remains a colossal mess that highlight awful design. Unless redesigned, Rapid Buses will strike this bottleneck every damn day.

PS I love the fact that I can catch the 6 at 25th or 24th. When you're running late, you can close ground and catch the missed bus, nothing like chasing the bus with work clothes and gear, mid-winter : ). Just in case, I'm kidding here. But I wasn't kidding about the commute convenience of the 6 or 17 during my downtown work days. Man, after riding buses in LA, Saigon, and the Bay Area for extended periods of my work and college life, Metro Transit is nice, really nice. 20 minutes from Lake Street to Block E, that's pretty phenomenal - your expectations are high.

[twincitizen]

There are no more plans for LRT. After Southwest and Bottineau get built, that's it. If the lines aren't on a Met Council map by now they aren't happening for a long time. We will actually just have 2 light rail lines in the Twin Cities, since Southwest is an extension of the Green Line (Central Corridor) and Bottineau is an extension of the Blue Line (Hiawatha).

So yeah, 2 light rail lines and a commuter line. That's about all that will be going on at The Interchange in the immediate and near future. There's some space being provided for private coach buses, of all things. And you are correct, there are no provisions for BRT at the Interchange, which is probably a mistake. You could have all sorts of BRT lines running over the North/Northwest metro and terminate/force transfer at The Interchange to save service hours by not running into the core of downtown. Slight inconvenience for customers, but saves the transit agency money.

The first few BRT lines that will actually get built don't really matter with regards to the Interchange. The Red Line is way down in the southern burbs. I think everyone assumes that the Orange Line will use the Marq2 corridor. Connections to the LRT lines would occur at Nicollet Mall Station.

My biggest questions are regarding operations:

Will all trains stop at the Interchange AND Target Field Station all the time? OR
Will Target Field become a game-day only station? OR
Will one station be designated for Blue Line and the other for Green Line? OR
Something else I haven't thought of yet?

[ECtransplant]

I wasn't kidding about the commute convenience of the 6 or 17 during my downtown work days. Man, after riding buses in LA, Saigon, and the Bay Area for extended periods of my work and college life, Metro Transit is nice, really nice. 20 minutes from Lake Street to Block E, that's pretty phenomenal - your expectations are high.

Depends what you're used to. My prior experience is the NYC subway and Philly trains/trolleys. I could get from West Harlem down nearly 8 miles to lower Manhattan in the same amount of time it takes me to go two miles from uptown to downtown. Sure, that's comparing different modes of transit, but that's kinda the point: there should be a different mode of transit than buses running down Hennepin -- which, to bring this somewhat back on topic, I've always thought the SW line should head to uptown and then tunnel under Hennepin to hook up with Central at the Interchange.

[fehler]

You know, I always assumed that this was a replacement of the Target Field Station. Now, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose is for. No bus service function? Isn't that the point, getting LRT, Northstar, and busses accessing 94/394 all into one cute package with a bow on top? Because if its supposed to be a "Destination" all on its own, placing it in the armpit of the garbage burner isn't where I'd go (unless they magically resurface Basset Creek as part of the deal).

[tabletop]

There are no more plans for LRT. After Southwest and Bottineau get built, that's it. If the lines aren't on a Met Council map by now they aren't happening for a long time. We will actually just have 2 light rail lines in the Twin Cities, since Southwest is an extension of the Green Line (Central Corridor) and Bottineau is an extension of the Blue Line (Hiawatha).

Your forgetting about the Midtown Greenway corridor, which for the most part will be completely grade separated. If this can be built with in a reasonable amount of time, coupled with the BRT on 35W, Uptown and South Minneapolis will be pretty well set up for the near future... Not that there's ever too much transit.

[MumfordMoses]

I wasn't kidding about the commute convenience of the 6 or 17 during my downtown work days. Man, after riding buses in LA, Saigon, and the Bay Area for extended periods of my work and college life, Metro Transit is nice, really nice. 20 minutes from Lake Street to Block E, that's pretty phenomenal - your expectations are high.

Depends what you're used to. My prior experience is the NYC subway and Philly trains/trolleys. I could get from West Harlem down nearly 8 miles to lower Manhattan in the same amount of time it takes me to go two miles from uptown to downtown. Sure, that's comparing different modes of transit, but that's kinda the point: there should be a different mode of transit than buses running down Hennepin -- which, to bring this somewhat back on topic, I've always thought the SW line should head to uptown and then tunnel under Hennepin to hook up with Central at the Interchange.

The Philly trolleys aren't exactly light speed, not at all. Those things putter along & have the same issue buses unquestionably deal with, shared roads with automobiles - this has been my experience with Toronto & Frisco's trolleys as well. But hey now, at least they're above ground & have more stops than a typical subway. I've also had genuinely painful trips on NYC's 1,2,3 (red line) from Wash Heights to Battery Park - sure they move fast but then there is all that time navigating dense crowds and coming up for air.. Granted, NYC's MTA is phenomenal in many parts and the usage is incredible - but you are indeed comparing an apple, a huge one, to an orange.

There was a big push to align SW with Hennepin, but it did not prevail. It could be a reality in the future.